Accelerated reference frames equation derivation question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of equations related to accelerated reference frames, specifically addressing the transition from an approximation to an equality in the context of vector rotation and the implications of small angle approximations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how an approximation becomes an equality in the derivation process.
  • Another participant requests clarification on the meaning of Q' and the initial steps of the derivation.
  • A detailed explanation is provided regarding the representation of Q' as a vector after rotation and the significance of the angle α between vector Q and the axis n hat.
  • It is asserted that the arc length during rotation can be expressed using the arc length formula, leading to a representation of Q' as a vector sum of Q and a vector s, with the approximation being valid for small δθ.
  • A participant discusses the limit process, indicating that as dt approaches 0, the left-hand side of the equation transitions to dQ/dt, while the right-hand side becomes dθ/dt times Q, raising questions about the validity of this transition from approximation to equality.
  • Another participant suggests keeping track of the error in the approximation to demonstrate that it approaches zero as dt approaches zero, proposing a method to analyze the error term E(dt).
  • Expressions of appreciation for the availability of resources that facilitate understanding complex questions are noted.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the transition from approximation to equality, with some seeking clarification and others proposing methods to analyze the error involved. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the validity of this transition.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves assumptions about the behavior of vectors during small rotations and the implications of limits in mathematical expressions, which may not be fully explored or resolved.

charliepebs
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My question regards how the approximation becomes an equality.
 

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I think you will need to provide more details. What's Q' supposed to be, and what's going on in the very first step?
 
Last edited:
Explanation of Diagram:

Q' is a representation of a 3D vector, vector Q, after a rotation of δθ about an axis, that axis being represented by vector n hat in the diagram. The angle between vector Q and vector n hat is represented as α.

Explanation of the very first step:

During the rotation depicted in the diagram, the arc traced by the head of the vector is a partial circle.
The partial circle has a center on the path of vector n hat, and a radius perpendicular to the path of vector n hat. therefore, the arc length traced by the rotation can be represented by the arc length formula for a circle in radians, s = rθ.

The equation in the very first step is based on two assertions. The first assertion is that when δθ is very small, the arc length can be represented as a vector, vector s, whose magnitude = rθ (from the arc length formula for a circle), and whose direction is in the direction of n hat cross Q. That vector is represented by the second part of the RHS of the very first equation, (|Q|sinα)δθ(in direction of n hat cross Q), where (|Q|sinα)δθ is the magnitude and corresponds to rθ in that |Q|sinα = the radius of the partial circle (r), and δθ = the angle displacement from Q to Q' (θ). The second assertion is that vector Q' can be represented as the vector sum of vector Q and vector s. However, given the stipulation of δθ being very small, this representation of Q' is regarded as an approximation.
 
Also, zooming out a little, the diagram and proceeding equations and derivations are a part of depicting the rate of change of the principal axis vectors, which share an origin with the body axis vectors, of the accelerated reference frame.

Also, to clarify, my question is regarding why we are able to transition from an approximation to an equality later in the derivation.
 
OK, I understand. When dt is close to 0, we have
$$\frac{Q(t+dt)-Q(t)}{dt}\approx \frac{\delta\theta}{dt}\times Q =\frac{\theta(t+dt)-\theta(t)}{dt}\times Q.$$ If we take the limit ##dt\to 0##, the left-hand side becomes dQ/dt, and the right-hand side becomes ##d\theta/dt\times Q##. But it's far from obvious that ≈ becomes =.

To prove it, what you would have to do is to keep track of the error caused by the approximation ##Q'-Q\approx \delta\theta|Q|\sin\alpha\,\hat e## where ##\hat e## is a unit vector in the direction of ##\hat n\times Q##. I'm not going to do that, because it would take too much of my time, so I'll just say that if you want to do it yourself, you should try to obtain a result of the form
$$\frac{Q(t+dt)-Q(t)}{dt}=\frac{\theta(t+dt)-\theta(t)}{dt}\times Q+\frac{E(dt)}{dt},$$ and then try to prove that ##|E(dt)/dt|\to 0## as ##dt\to 0##. Note that you may not have to find an exact formula for E(dt). It would suffice to show e.g. that it's a sum of terms that all contain at least two factors of dt.
 
thank you! so wonderful to have resources like this now days!
 
I hope people appreciate that questions that could once stump someone for years can be cleared up in days!
 

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