Acceleration without rotation (intertial, nonintertial)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dynamics of a pendulum inside an accelerating railroad car, as presented in John Taylor's Classical Mechanics. Participants explore the implications of the pendulum's motion in both inertial and noninertial reference frames, focusing on small oscillations and the effective gravitational force experienced by the pendulum.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the nature of small oscillations mentioned in the example, seeking clarification on whether it refers to oscillations about the equilibrium angle or oscillations that alter the angle itself.
  • There is a discussion about the forces acting on the pendulum in both inertial and noninertial frames, with some participants noting the introduction of an inertial force in the noninertial frame.
  • Participants discuss the representation of forces in a diagram, specifically why tension is not included in the hypotenuse labeled as g(eff), with some suggesting it is because the focus is on effective weight forces.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the nature of oscillations when the pendulum is displaced from its equilibrium position in an accelerating frame, with some participants affirming that the angle changes slightly during oscillations.
  • One participant highlights the equivalence between different physics problems when transitioning to non-inertial reference frames, suggesting that this perspective can simplify problem-solving.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the nature of small oscillations and the effects of acceleration on the pendulum's equilibrium position. However, there are nuances in understanding the representation of forces and the implications of moving between reference frames, indicating that some aspects of the discussion remain contested.

Contextual Notes

Participants express various assumptions regarding the forces acting on the pendulum and the interpretation of diagrams, which may depend on specific definitions and contexts. The discussion also touches on the mathematical treatment of the problem, but no consensus is reached on all points raised.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and enthusiasts of classical mechanics, particularly those exploring dynamics in non-inertial reference frames and the behavior of oscillating systems.

Damascus Road
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Hey all,

I'm looking at an example in John Taylor's Classical Mechanics that I have some questions about.
The example states:

Consider a simple pendulum (mass m, length L) mounted inside a railroad car that is accelerating to the right with constant acceleration A. Find the angle at which the pendulum will remain at rest relative to the accelerating car and find the frequency of small oscillations about this equilibrium angle.

First question: what small oscillations is he talking about? Does he mean the bob will oscillate about the angle? Or that it will oscillate in and out, effectively altering the angle slightly?

He goes on to say that in the inertial reference frame, there are two forces, the tension and 'mg'.
Net F = T + mg.
In the noninertial frame we introduce the inertial force, -ma
Net F = T + mg - mA.

Setting g(eff) = g - A, the noninertial net force is
F = T +mg(eff)

Second question:
He has an illustration of the car, with the pendulum inside swinging to the left, and a second illustration beside it of the triangle made by the pendulum. The hypotenuse is labeled as g(eff), the vertical side as 'g' and the bottom as '-A'. Why isn't the tension included on the hypotenuse?

The figure has this caption:
A pendulum is suspended from the roof of a railroad car that is accelerating with constant acceleration A. In the noninertial frame of the car, the acceleration manifests itself through the inertial force -mA, which in turn, is equivalent to the replacement of g by the effective g(eff) = g-A.
 
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Damascus Road said:
First question: what small oscillations is he talking about? Does he mean the bob will oscillate about the angle? Or that it will oscillate in and out, effectively altering the angle slightly?
He's talking about the usual small oscillations that a pendulum can exhibit if you displace it from equilibrium and get it swinging. (What's the frequency of a swinging pendulum?)

He goes on to say that in the inertial reference frame, there are two forces, the tension and 'mg'.
Net F = T + mg.
In the noninertial frame we introduce the inertial force, -ma
Net F = T + mg - mA.

Setting g(eff) = g - A, the noninertial net force is
F = T +mg(eff)
OK.

Second question:
He has an illustration of the car, with the pendulum inside swinging to the left, and a second illustration beside it of the triangle made by the pendulum. The hypotenuse is labeled as g(eff), the vertical side as 'g' and the bottom as '-A'. Why isn't the tension included on the hypotenuse?
Because he's just talking about the effective weight force. Of course, it will be equal and opposite to the tension (when the pendulum is in equilibrium).

The figure has this caption:
A pendulum is suspended from the roof of a railroad car that is accelerating with constant acceleration A. In the noninertial frame of the car, the acceleration manifests itself through the inertial force -mA, which in turn, is equivalent to the replacement of g by the effective g(eff) = g-A.
OK.

The point here (at least part of it) is that in the inertial frame there is a net force on the pendulum bob. But in the accelerated frame, the net force (if you include the inertial force) is zero, since in that frame the acceleration is zero.
 
Doc Al said:
He's talking about the usual small oscillations that a pendulum can exhibit if you displace it from equilibrium and get it swinging. (What's the frequency of a swinging pendulum?)
Meaning, the angle changes slightly, right?
 
Yes, the angle is slightly changing so that sin(theta) = theta and the equation of motion can be solved similar to a simple pendulum in a fixed frame of reference but you are using g(eff) rather than g.
 
Damascus Road said:
Meaning, the angle changes slightly, right?
If a pendulum swings, then its angle with respect to its equilibrium position must change.

If the car was not accelerating, the pendulum will hang straight down (like usual). Displace it a bit, and it will oscillate like a pendulum does.

If the car is accelerating, the pendulum now hangs at some angle with respect to the vertical. Displace it from that angle, and it will oscillate about that angle.

Make sense?
 
Yes, makes sense. The pendulum will make small oscillations about the equilibrium angle created by the inertial force.
 
The beautiful thing about changing into non-inertial reference frames is that you see an equivalence between various problems in physics. A lot of times, one of the equivalent problems is easier to solve (as in this case). Another interesting thing you can do with this problem is once you have expressed everything in the accelerated box car frame, move into the frame that rotates with the pendulum. If you do so correctly, you will obtain the Euler-Lagrange equations where the angle the pendulum makes with g is the generalised coordinate.
 

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