Physics Accelerator Physics - A field where jobs go begging

[HDave]

Thank you very much for information on this field. My question on getting into this field is: Does it matter what I go into grad school for? I understand there are few schools that offer physics PhDs in Accelerator physics, but these accelerator schools seem to accept graduates from all different fields. So would it matter if I went to grad school for MScEE and then took these additional accelerator courses?

Also, this place: http://uspas.fnal.gov/faq/masters-program.shtml
was the only program I was able to find that gives you an actual masters. The other program I found in the U.S. https://portal.slac.stanford.edu/sites/ard_public/ard_students/lcschool/Pages/default.aspx
doesn't seem to offer credits or a degree of some sort.

I am currently an undergrad (junior) and was looking into grad/career opportunities when I found your post, and if this field is as growing and industry-applicable as you say, I am very interested!

 

[Guan]

Hello there.
Will there be any opportunity for MSc Nuclear Engineering graduate to work on designing or operating Accelerator Driven Subcritical Thorium Reactor? :)

I have a BSc. degree in Nuclear Science. And, I'm considering taking MSc in Nuclear Engineering.

 

[Anding]

Hi ZapperZ, and others,

Thank you for your information.

Could you be kind enough to sketch out what might be the best route to becoming an accelerator physicist?

Assume for the sake of argument:
(i) the starting point is someone with a good bachelors degree in physics who also has some practical experience in computing and a little electronic engineering
(ii) the objective is to do a relevant PhD, possibly via a masters, and then become a scientist working at/with a big accelerator facility

For example, specifically:

Are there masters programs specifically tailored to accelerator physics?

Would it make sense to look for an academic group already doing work for an accelerator and seek a PhD with them?

The "accelerator schools" don't seem to be the starting point because they appear to offer short courses that presumably supplement an eductation elsewhere. Would you tend to organize the Masters/PhD first and then go to accelerator school as and when your supervisor advises?

Do you think the track is different in the US/Europe? I'm particularly interested in the European track.


Your thoughts are much appreciated!

 

[HDave]

Hey Anding,

Maybe I can help answer some of your questions I know through researching accelerator schools myself. Unfortunately I really only know about U.S. schools but I would guess it is similar in Europe.

The regular path doesn't seem very clear cut. One possible path is to attend accelerator classes WHILE pursuing and masters or PhD in some university. You will get university credits for classes attended at Accelerator school.
There are a few U.S. Uni's that have programs/phD's for accelerator research such as Cornell, Stanford, etc. These schools tend to have access to their own accelerator you can work with.
Another path is through here: http://uspas.fnal.gov/faq/masters-program.shtml , it is a joint program between USPAS and Indiana university.

Overall, the basic idea is to attend accelerator school or perform accelerator research while you are a grad/phD student. The question I still have is, do you have to do physics phD or can you also do accelerator research while going for an E. Engineering masters.

 

[Anding]

Thanks HDave for your thoughts

An additional question - does "accelerator physics" as a field generally include the particle detectors, or just the machine that does the particle accleration?

 

[HDave]

That's a good question and I would guess the detectors and accelerators are closely related and you would be able to work on either.
However, accelerators can be used for a variety of tasks and unless you are building something used for experiments and particle detection, you probably won't really be working much on detectors.

 

[ZapperZ]

The "particle detection" part may come in in the diagnostics used to characterize the beam parameter. One could say that instruments such as the ICT (integrated charge transformer), Faraday Cup, YAG screens, beam positioning monitors (BPM), etc. are particle detectors, because they measure charge per bunch, beam positions, etc. While we need those instruments in a typical accelerator, and need to know how they work, the study of these things typically is not covered as part of an accelerator curriculum beyond just a description on what they do and how they are used.

Now mind you, the study of beam diagnostics itself is part of accelerator physics. Techniques to measure beam emittance, beam profile, bunch length, etc.. etc. using these instruments are a significant part of accelerator physics, and there are people who concentrate on those. I had a summer undergraduate intern who made a very fast (hundreds of ps time resolution) Faraday cup for his project in accelerator physics. So it is definitely an area that is within accelerator physics.

Zz.

 

[ThereIam]

First, thanks to ZapperZ for posting and continuing to contribute to a really awesome thread. This is the sort of thread we all long to see in this sub forum!

Second, I was looking at the particle accelerator school website and I found this bit about the masters program:

http://uspas.fnal.gov/programs2/masters-degree/index.shtml

Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[Lyrassia]

Thank you Zapper for this awesome thread! Profiled.

 

[tsork]

Hey Zapper,

I'm having trouble finding information about accelerator graduate programs in Canada and employment afterwards as well...

would you happen to know about the current state of accelerator science in Canada? and any Graduate programs?

 

[ZapperZ]

I'm afraid I don't know much about accelerator programs in Canada.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

This is a link as added evidence of the application of particle accelerators outside basic physics research.

http://phys.org/news/2013-05-physicists-cargo-x-ray-scanners.html

The application of accelerators in so many different areas is the main reason why there is a demand for such expertise.

Zz.

 

[George Jones]

Hey Zapper,

I'm having trouble finding information about accelerator graduate programs in Canada and employment afterwards as well...

would you happen to know about the current state of accelerator science in Canada? and any Graduate programs?

Sorry, I am late with this, but see

http://www.triumf.ca/research-program/research-topics/accelerator-physics

 

[AccAcc]

First, thanks to ZapperZ for posting and continuing to contribute to a really awesome thread. This is the sort of thread we all long to see in this sub forum!

Second, I was looking at the particle accelerator school website and I found this bit about the masters program:

http://uspas.fnal.gov/programs2/masters-degree/index.shtml

Anyone have any experience with this?

I haven't been to USPAS, but I know quite a bit about it. Many summer undergraduate students at the national labs attend the program. Everybody seems to like the bi-annual USPAS program, but be warned that each session is a hell of a lot of work!

I don't know of anyone that has done the Masters yet, unfortunately. Indiana University is one of the main accelerator schools in the US (not like that is saying much, given there's only a dozen or so, AFIK). I'd be worrying about credits expiring and actually making it to and passing enough of the courses within the allotted time; if your focus isn't on Accelerator Physics, I think it would be hard to get that much time off to attend. Your mileage may vary, though.

There are a few U.S. Uni's that have programs/phD's for accelerator research such as Cornell, Stanford, etc. These schools tend to have access to their own accelerator you can work with.

Accelerator Physics Programs in the US is a oddball. It isn't necessarily schools that "have their own" accelerators, but also those that are close to the National Laboratories. Here's a short list of schools with PhD accelerator programs.

University of Maryland - UMER

Cornell - CESR

UCLA - PEGASUS

UC Berkeley - Near Berkeley National Laboratory (campus is essentially next door)

Northern Illinois University - Near Fermilab and Argonne National Laboratories

Indiana University - They have an accelerator that I know nothing about

University of Chicago - Manages Argonne, near Fermilab and Argonne

Michigan State University - NSCL

New York Stony Brook - Manages Brookhaven National Laboratory

Old Dominion - Near to Jefferson Laboratory

University of Texas Austin - ?

I'm sure I'm missing some, but it is kind of a mix between having their own and sharing resources with nearby national laboratories.

 

[ZapperZ]

Actually, you missed quite a few.

USC, U of Tennessee, Duke, Vanderbilt, u of Virginia, etc. There are also many smaller universities which may not have a formal accelerator physics program, but has at least one faculty member who is in such a field and thus, will mentor students who want to go into this field. An example in the Chicago area is the Illinois Institute of Technology, where you have a faculty member each in physics and electrical engineering dept that do supervise students doing work in accelerator physics. In fact, I could put U of Chicago in that category, since their accelerator physics program is mainly due to the presence of Kwangje Kim.

The USPAS is intense because they are compressing a semester's worth of work into a few weeks. But an undergraduate who are just starting out should take the the intro survey, which is less demanding, and take the more advanced courses later on. Again, if this isn't known, for those in a US institution, there is a summer internship program jointly run by Argonne and Fermilab called the Lee Teng internship that aims to introduce students into the field of accelerator physics. You get to spend a summer working in an accelerator physics project either at Argonne or Fermilab and get to attend the intro course at a USPAS.

Zz.

 

[AccAcc]

Ah, thanks for pointing those out. I'm quite surprised that I forgot Vanderbilit, as Charlie Brau is quite famous.

Yes, there are a good number of schools that have one faculty associated with accelerator physics that sends their students to work at one national lab or another.

 

[ZapperZ]

I debated on whether to post this in a separate thread in the Academic Guidance forum, or to post it in this thread and keep the discussion on Accelerator physics in just this one thread. I still don't know if I'm making the correct decision here, and may split this off later on, but for now, here is some news about the next USPAS:

The USPAS is pleased to announce their next session of university-style
credit courses sponsored by the University of Tennessee, Knoxville to
be held in Knoxville Tennessee from January 20-31, 2014. Participants
may earn 3 credits from the University of Tennessee or may choose to
audit their course. One undergraduate-level course and eleven specialized
graduate-level courses will be offered. Financial support is limited
and will be awarded on a competitive basis. Participation is open to
both U.S. and non-U.S. residents.

* Two-week full courses:
- Fundamentals of Accelerator Physics and Technology with Simulations and Measurements Lab (undergraduate level)
- Accelerator Physics
- RF Cavity and Component Design for Accelerators
- Microwave Linear Accelerators

* One-week half courses:
- Ion Sources and Low-Energy Ion Beams
- Vibrational Aspects of Accelerators
- System Safety and Safety Systems for Accelerators
- Managing Science in Research Labs, Part I & II
- Control Room Accelerator Physics
- Design of Room Temperature Magnets
- Radiation Physics, Regulation and Management

Please visit http://uspas.fnal.gov for full course outlines and an application form.

Zz.

 

[ChristinaJ]

I'm an accelerator physicist and this is what I do

I'm a postdoc who studies the physics of electron beams and dabbles a little in the field of advanced accelerators (acceleration using plasmas etc.).

I work with lab scientists, academics, students and small business. I work on developing technology for both large and small accelerators. This technology is not only aimed at supercolliders but also at accelerators for use in the medical and other fields.

In an average week I may: build a computer model, write some software, develop diagnostics and control systems, operate a particle accelerator, try to figure out why said accelerator is not working and build some stuff.

People think that accelerator physics is a narrow subject but it can utilize many different skills, most of which you learn as you go.

 

[cryora]

This is a great thread, and I highly appreciate all the information that has already been posted. I'm only a lower division community college student, so I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but I have a few questions about accelerator physicists.

Are accelerator physicists further subdivided into different areas based on application (i.e. medical accelerator physicist, industrial accelerator physicist, etc.)? Or is an accelerator physicist capable of working on a wide range of accelerators?

Also, how long does it take to complete an accelerator construction project (from designing, to testing, and building an accelerator, large and small)?

People think that accelerator physics is a narrow subject but it can utilize many different skills, most of which you learn as you go.

What are some of these skill that are not necessarily Physics related? I would guess programming and electrical design to be among these skills. Would designing electronic circuitry be something you pick up during your Physics undergrad studies, accelerator-specific studies, or elsewhere (on your own?)?

 

[ChristinaJ]

Also, how long does it take to complete an accelerator construction project (from designing, to testing, and building an accelerator, large and small)?

Research for the LHC started in the mid 80's and was turned on in 2009. Also, research on the International Linear Collider started in the 90's and they haven't even decided where to build it yet, so it's not a fast process.

As far as smaller machines go, I think it depends on how new the technology is, if you need to do lots of R&D the whole process will take much longer than if you are building something based on existing technology.

 

[AccAcc]

Research for the LHC started in the mid 80's and was turned on in 2009. Also, research on the International Linear Collider started in the 90's and they haven't even decided where to build it yet, so it's not a fast process.

As far as smaller machines go, I think it depends on how new the technology is, if you need to do lots of R&D the whole process will take much longer than if you are building something based on existing technology.

There are a whole bunch of smaller and active electron accelerators around US universities and National Laboratories that require daily, hands-on maintenance. Run a beam for a day, open up the cave or go down to the tunnels, tweak cameras/magnets/experiments, exit, lock-up, start beam up again. It's not as much about long-term construction and planning as it is incremental operations and upgrading.

This is a great thread, and I highly appreciate all the information that has already been posted. I'm only a lower division community college student, so I apologize for my lack of knowledge, but I have a few questions about accelerator physicists.

Are accelerator physicists further subdivided into different areas based on application (i.e. medical accelerator physicist, industrial accelerator physicist, etc.)? Or is an accelerator physicist capable of working on a wide range of accelerators?

Also, how long does it take to complete an accelerator construction project (from designing, to testing, and building an accelerator, large and small)?

What are some of these skill that are not necessarily Physics related? I would guess programming and electrical design to be among these skills. Would designing electronic circuitry be something you pick up during your Physics undergrad studies, accelerator-specific studies, or elsewhere (on your own?)?

Overall, I'd say there's a pretty large divide between accelerator physicists that work on electron facilities, and those that work on proton/heavy-ion experiments. The vastly different scale in mass leads to a significant divergence of what effects matter and what ones don't.

There's room for all kinds in accelerator physics. Work on a larger proton/ion facility (CERN, Fermilab's main complex, RHIC), and there will be days, weeks, or months that you can't work on the main beamlines, but there are constant, 24-7 shifts and data collection regarding the performance of the full complex.

On a smaller accelerator, there is hands-on work, interaction with techs to get pieces modified or installed AND helping them yourself, shifts or work in the control-room.

With all, you'll be doing programming of some kind, but that's good, because programming-based research is fantastic experience for getting a non-physics job in the future.

Actual Electrical Engineering is a bit borderline. You'll work with electrical stuff and equipment, but it really isn't anywhere near as in-depth as to what actual EE majors do.

I'd always recommend taking your free time to PRODUCE something. Either sitting down to program or make your own circuitry as a great experience, and helps get you accustomed to the process and frustration that comes with research.

 

[thecage]

Hello,

Does anyone know of any Master's programme in Europe? I haven't really found any specialised accelerator physics courses, is it best just to take a high energy physics master and go to summer schools? Or do I have to go to America?

 

[evanatch]

Hi, I'm a high school senior who will be majoring in physics or engineering (although I'm sort of leaning towards physics at the moment). Being able to combine the two sounds interesting, especially in a field with strong job prospects! That said, I have a couple questions:

-What exactly would an accelerator physicist do on a day-to-day basis? What's the impact of of accelerator physics on areas like space technology or nuclear energy fields? What other fields does accelerator physics research have an impact on?
-How interdisciplinary is accelerator physics? I'm interested in things like nuclear physics, particles physics, and plasma physics (although as a high school student I'll readily admit I don't know an awful lot about any of those disciplines). Would specializing in accelerator physics prevent one from exploring these other areas?
-Since you say accelerator physicists are in demand, does this mean they have a better chance at tenure-track positions than other disciplines? Being a professor would be a kind of dream job for me; not only because of the cool research opportunities, but I really love to teach people about things I'm interested in as well. I'm just a bit scared of spending 10+ more years of schooling getting a PhD and being stuck in a low-paying postdoc position for 10 years afterward.

I'm probably getting way ahead of myself considering I'm still in high school but I like to plan ahead. Thanks for this thread, it's definitely got me thinking about this field!

Evan

 

[Moneer81]

evanatch,

Do yourself a favor, and go the engineering route.

To answer your questions:

1. zero impact on the fields you mentioned

2. The field is pretty interdisciplinary. Mainly between physics and EE.

3. If you are worried about getting stuck as a postdoc or concerned about employment opportunities, then go the engineering route instead of physics.

P.S. I am not an accelerator physicists so please take my advice with a grain of salt. Someone more knowledgeable is probably more worthy of listening to.

 

[Gullik]

Hello,

Does anyone know of any Master's programme in Europe? I haven't really found any specialised accelerator physics courses, is it best just to take a high energy physics master and go to summer schools? Or do I have to go to America?

If you for example would follow this program at Oslo, Norway, Subatomic Physics, they have plenty of people working on CLIC, a next generation linear accelerator project so you could write a Master Thesis in collaboration with some of them.

 

[AccAcc]

Is it possible to change the thread title to actually include the term "Accelerator Physics"? This is so... hidden. I really only found it because I knew the name of the article it references.

Hi, I'm a high school senior who will be majoring in physics or engineering (although I'm sort of leaning towards physics at the moment). Being able to combine the two sounds interesting, especially in a field with strong job prospects! That said, I have a couple questions:

-What exactly would an accelerator physicist do on a day-to-day basis? What's the impact of of accelerator physics on areas like space technology or nuclear energy fields? What other fields does accelerator physics research have an impact on?
-How interdisciplinary is accelerator physics? I'm interested in things like nuclear physics, particles physics, and plasma physics (although as a high school student I'll readily admit I don't know an awful lot about any of those disciplines). Would specializing in accelerator physics prevent one from exploring these other areas?
-Since you say accelerator physicists are in demand, does this mean they have a better chance at tenure-track positions than other disciplines? Being a professor would be a kind of dream job for me; not only because of the cool research opportunities, but I really love to teach people about things I'm interested in as well. I'm just a bit scared of spending 10+ more years of schooling getting a PhD and being stuck in a low-paying postdoc position for 10 years afterward.

I'm probably getting way ahead of myself considering I'm still in high school but I like to plan ahead. Thanks for this thread, it's definitely got me thinking about this field!

Evan

A few answers:

- High school is WAY too early to really be considering specializations of your post-graduate work. Finish your undergrad physics classes, then start the pruning process.

- While the job market is relatively good for permanent positions, this is overwhelmingly for staff scientist roles at National Laboratories, and assorted private companies. There aren't many professorships to be found in accelerator physics, because there aren't many schools that do accelerator physics... which is why the job market is so good. Or at least that's my view on the topic. Don't aim for a professorship, period, or you'll end up like one of my many friends on Facebook that is completely caught off guard (HOW?) by the postdoc job market.

- Accelerator Postdocs are better paid and easier to get. You also spend less time as one before finding a more permanent position at a lab, or at least it was a few years ago. The US government's budget issues will be a long-term source of pain for accelerator physicists.

- Accelerator Physics serves as the source for Particle Physics experiments. Constant upgrades of the accelerator systems of national laboratories drives luminosity and energy upgrades for the particle physics experiments. They need us, badly, even if they don't really acknowledge our existence all the time.

- What do you mean by "Nuclear Physics"? Do you mean Spin Physics, or Nuclear Power? Accelerator Driven Systems are a thing for the latter.

- Plasma Physics is tangentially related. Some of the formalisms help (by my understand), but Plasma Wakefield Acceleration is a small intersection between the two fields that is of some interest.

 

[ZapperZ]

I'm going to mention this in here so that info on Accelerator Physics are contained on this one thread.

I've emphasized the marriage between physics and engineering that is found in accelerator physics. It would be a disservice to this field if I do not emphasize another important merging of fields here, and that is physics and computational science.

Accelerator physics depends very much on computational science. This is because before one can actually build anything, there has to be a well-modeled and simulation of what needed to be built. These components and structures are prohibitively expensive and complicated. They properties and functions can only usually be characterized via computational simulations.

This is why computational science/physics is a vital component in accelerator physics. Physicists and engineers who specialize in this area of accelerator physics almost become computer scientists themselves, because very often, they not only have to be able to use the codes they are using, but they often have to write and optimize those codes themselves.

This report highlights the future needs in terms of computing for accelerator sciences:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.2203

It should provide ample evidence where someone who wants to do engineering or physics, but also are very keen in computer programing/software/simulations can have his/her cake and eat it too. It is another example where by the field of accelerator physics truly often combines knowledge and expertise from different disciplines.

Zz.

 

[zeralda21]

Zz.

In general, it seems that every domain of let it be science/technology, both theoretical and experimental, relies more and more on computational science nowadays. How much computer science is required though? Equivalent to a Bsc? Ms? Or even more?

 

[ZapperZ]

In general, it seems that every domain of let it be science/technology, both theoretical and experimental, relies more and more on computational science nowadays. How much computer science is required though? Equivalent to a Bsc? Ms? Or even more?

Please note that you are not majoring in computer science here. You are still either in engineering or physics, but you will have large components of computational work/computational physics/numerical analysis.

I linked earlier in this thread the curriculum to a Particle Accelerator school. Look through the curriculum and you'll find computational courses related to particle physics.

Zz.

 

[thecage]

Hello,

I have some further questions about this field:
- Would it be possible to combine this field with others, such as optics? I've seen some research about accelerators-on-a-chip using lasers, but how big are such cross-over fields (in terms of: money spent on research, and/or number of unsolved problems, and/or employability)?
- I'm majoring in physics because engineering just seems to "locked in" to the chosen specialisation; I'd want to work on a multitude of problems; sometimes doing pure theory, sometimes pure application, on many scales (from mega-projects to small tabletop experiments) and just doing wild, imaginative science that could lead to unexpected result. I don't only want to work on projects where the outcome is already known and you just have to do blueprint after blueprint using conventional methods and the most excitment you'll get is when your computer code shows the wrong result. In short, would accelerator physics be something for me?
- Does anyone know some names of companies that are in the accelerator business?
- Does anyone know any internships for europeans? (don't mention CERN because I'm not eligible)