Physics Accelerator Physics - A field where jobs go begging

[ZapperZ]

An update on this for those in the US.

The National Science Foundation, starting with this year's funding cycle, has created a separate division for Accelerator Science. It used to be that funding related to accelerator physics were done under the High Energy Physics division of the NSF. Now, Accelerator Science has its own separate division.

This, I think, is a more accurate reflection of what accelerator physics is. A lot of advancement, and thus, funding requests, for accelerator research involves applications that have nothing to do with high energy physics. Funding requests related to improvement for FELs and ERLs are more in line with facilities related to material science, condensed matter physics, etc. Thus, having a separate Accelerator Science division makes sense.

Not sure how it will be in terms of ease of getting funding, though.

Zz.

 

[heatengine516]

I'm a little confused on how this works.

So are the USPAS classes technical courses meant to supplement a PhD at a university that already does accelerator physics? Or is this an actual stand-alone Master's program, after which you would be qualified to work in labs as an accelerator scientist?

OR is it meant to supplement a PhD from any university in whatever kind of physics you're doing at that university?

And does Indiana offer a dedicated program at their university, or do you HAVE to hunt down the courses at whatever university is hosting them that year?

 

[AccAcc]

I'm a little confused on how this works.

So are the USPAS classes technical courses meant to supplement a PhD at a university that already does accelerator physics? Or is this an actual stand-alone Master's program, after which you would be qualified to work in labs as an accelerator scientist?

OR is it meant to supplement a PhD from any university in whatever kind of physics you're doing at that university?

And does Indiana offer a dedicated program at their university, or do you HAVE to hunt down the courses at whatever university is hosting them that year?

Yes, to all three questions.

- The USPAS program acts as a way to give introductory course work for Accelerator Physics at schools that don't have a devoted class for the subject.

- I don't know if it alone qualifies you to work at a lab, as I think a very small % of the attendees are "at large". Most are lab employees already, or graduate students. There are a few undergrads tossed in the mix (the Lee Tang student group, for example).

- The USPAS program offers advanced classes for employees at labs to learn more about advanced accelerator subjects and systems.

- The program offers a way current employees at labs to earn a Masters degree over time, by taking taking one class each time there is a USPAS school for several years.

- Indiana has quite a large accelerator group, as far as I can tell.

 

[heatengine516]

Thank you very much for the info. So basically, I don't really need to worry about it until grad school or employment in a related area. But I love the idea of the marriage between physics, engineering, and computational science. I think I'll keep an eye on the Lee Tang internship and perhaps try to apply next summer.

 

[thegreenlaser]

Thanks for the info, this field looks pretty interesting. I understand there's a lot of overlap, but how does one get into this field on the EE side rather than the physics side? I'm an EE student (minoring in physics), and I'd like to do a masters/PhD in EE with some focus on physics. A lot of the accelerator grad programs look like they would get you a MSc/PhD in physics rather than EE, though. Is it possible to get an EE masters/PhD directly relating to accelerator physics or would I have to do something like RF or computational EM (or something else?) and then move into accelerator physics from there?

 

[ZapperZ]

Thanks for the info, this field looks pretty interesting. I understand there's a lot of overlap, but how does one get into this field on the EE side rather than the physics side? I'm an EE student (minoring in physics), and I'd like to do a masters/PhD in EE with some focus on physics. A lot of the accelerator grad programs look like they would get you a MSc/PhD in physics rather than EE, though. Is it possible to get an EE masters/PhD directly relating to accelerator physics or would I have to do something like RF or computational EM (or something else?) and then move into accelerator physics from there?

The key thing here is to find a graduate advisor who will support you in pursuing an accelerator physics program. This makes no difference if you are a physics or an EE major. For example, at University of Maryland, you can do accelerator physics either in physics or in EE, simply because the EE program also has a program and the faculty members in that area.

Even if the department (be it physics or EE) does not have specific courses in accelerator physics for you specialize in, with your advisor's support, the USPAS classes should be able to provide you with the necessary course work before you start your research.

BTW, if you've looked carefully at a post that I did in this thread, I listed 3 individuals who currently are in the EE dept. at various schools who are actually accelerator physicists. There's a good chance that those same schools will have EE programs supporting students who wish to pursue accelerator science.

Zz.

 

[heatengine516]

What if you have no one in the physics or EE departments that has any interest in accelerator physics? Indiana isn't too far, I think if I want to pursue accelerator physics I'll have to go there for my masters/PhD.

 

[ZapperZ]

What if you have no one in the physics or EE departments that has any interest in accelerator physics?

Have you asked?

The faculty members may not have had experiences in the field, but it doesn't mean that they won't let you do that IF, say, you can work at a National Lab, for example, and have another person supervise your work. Often, the faculty member may have expertise in RF fields or EM fields or related fields, but not specifically with applications to accelerators. He/she may agree to be the advisor of a student who wish to pursue accelerator physics.

Otherwise, go to another school.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

This post is not really related to "career" topic, but since this thread is about accelerator physics, I will keep all of it in here.

This PhysicsWorld article highlights a proposed ability to observe the dynamics of a Rydberg atom, with picosecond time resolution. Most people reading this will be enamored by the idea of watching a "movie" of the motion of electrons in such an atom. However, don't miss paying attention to what gives them the ability to make such an observation! It is due to the advancement that has been made in accelerator physics!

The proposed measurement comes out of the advancement in free-electron lasers, an instrument that is within the realm of accelerator physics. People in this field continue to make improvements to both the physics of beams and also to the engineering aspect of this field. It is only when they make the improvements and tell other folks in other fields what the machine is capable of doing, will these other folks then able to dream up things that they can do. And this is not just limited to physics. Advancement in medicine, chemistry, biology, engineering, etc. also rely on the availability and capability of the instrument that they use. As the instrument expands and improves its capabilities, so will the rest of the people using it.

So while most people will read this article and think that it is about viewing atoms, you should read it as an article on accelerator physics and the improvement made to a free-electron laser.

Zz.

 

[WK95]

I know that Electrical Engineering and Physics are preferred degrees but how can a person with a Mechanical Engineering degree (Which I'm working on getting) get into this field?

 

[ZapperZ]

I know that Electrical Engineering and Physics are preferred degrees but how can a person with a Mechanical Engineering degree (Which I'm working on getting) get into this field?

Do you have sufficient knowledge in E&M up to Jackson's "Classical Electromagnetism"? Can you go into graduate school by switching to EE? Can you find an advisor to support you in this field?

These are questions that only you can answer.

Zz.

 

[PPFusion]

What are good UK institutions to do a PhD in accelerator physics?

 

[ZapperZ]

What are good UK institutions to do a PhD in accelerator physics?

I should have pointed out this document early on when someone asked me in general about the various institutions in the US that have accelerator physics program.

http://web.mit.edu/Lns/news/RAST_Education_Paper.pdf

This document contains that, and also programs in the UK, in Russia, Japan, and even Turkey. It has info about the USPAS, the CERN Particle Accelerator school for students in Europe, and the Joint Accelerator Schools.

Zz.

 

[ChristinaJ]

What are good UK institutions to do a PhD in accelerator physics?

The John Adams Institute, which is a collaboration between Oxford, Imperial college and Royal Holloway, and the Cockroft Institute which is a collaboration between Manchester, Liverpool and Lancaster Universities.

 

[ChristinaJ]

I personally champion the John Adams Institute as I had a great experience and was given the chance to perform parts of my graduate work in Japan and the USA.

 

[thecage]

I have been in contact with the John Adams Institute (Oxford) for a summer internship, and I will be interviewed next week for the final selection. Now, I'm wondering about what sorts of qualifications they are looking for; I'm currently doing my bachelor's diploma project at CERN in (theoretical) accelerator physics and I have taken master courses in optics, though I don't have much experience in experimental physics or working with optical tables etc. They told me that the project most likely will be about lasers, is hands-on experience necessary to be selected?

 

[ChristinaJ]

I'm pretty sure hands on experience is not necessary for such a position but if you come up against candidates of similar academic calibre but also with hands on experience you may loose out.

Good luck!

 

[Theoretical]

What are the chances that someone would be accepted to do a PhD in Physics when i haven't really covered it as an undergrad? The closest I got was working on an antimatter trap for a project.

 

[Theoretical]

That should say PhD in Accelerator Physics. Edit function won't let me change it.

 

[ZapperZ]

One often does not major in "accelerator physics" at the undergraduate level. Those who got into a PhD program in accelerator physics did not have a B.Sc. physics/EE degree in "Accelerator physics". Such a major/specialization usually doesn't exist at the undergraduate level.

This means that you get into accelerator physics with your standard physics/EE/engineering degree.

If you have time, please read through the thread. There are numerous entries here that might answer your question.

Zz.

 

[ChristinaJ]

Accelerator physics is rarely offered at undergraduate level, it is often just an aside in particle physics studies. I had a grand total of 4 hours of Accelerator physics lectures at undergrad, I actually found my interest during my final year project.

I would say that most of my formally taught accelerator physics came from my first year graduate education and summer schools.

Btw, I studied in England, it may not be the same story everywhere.

 

[Theoretical]

Sorry I should have clarified that I am aware people don't do a degree Accelerator Physics. It is just with all of the talk of attending the accelerator schools it sounded like that was required.

 

[ChristinaJ]

Introductory accelerator schools such as CAS (CERN accelerator school) and USPAS (US particle accelerator school) are generally attended early in a graduate degree, though you can attend as an undergraduate, and can in some cases be used for credit. More specialized schools, which deal with specific areas of accelerator physics are often attended by postdocs and graduate student's who are further into their degree.

 

[Theoretical]

Okay thank you for clearing that up!

 

[Duderonimous]

Hello,

I have read this post closely as well as most of the links and I am extremely interested. If I decided to attend a graduate program that offers accelerator physics ideally I would like to go to Stanford, Berkeley, or UCLA.

I am 25 and about to start my junior year (transfer) at cal poly pomona and I was admitted for electrical engineering.

Say if I want to be admitted to the applied physics department at Stanford as a doctoral student. Am I at a disadvantage being a EE student (with focus on RF engineering) as opposed to being a physics student when I apply? (The department website says they do encourage students from engineering fields to apply to the department)
In addition to the general and physics GRE scores (which I am sure I will do well on) that must be submitted there is also a qualifying exam that grad students must take within six quarters of being in the Stanford applied physics program. Will this qualifying exam be beyond me with my EE knowledge (it is an oral exam so no practice exams were available to look at). I planned on minoring in physics along with EE. Will this suffice? Or should I just jump ship and major in physics?

In addition how does one go about looking for jobs hiring someone with accelerator knowledge. I see only job listings for national laboratories (via the USPAS website). I am kind of excluding medical physics because it doesn't catch my interest. Would I really be guaranteed a job out of school in this "field where jobs go begging"?

Thanks.

 

[ZapperZ]

You may want to read and participate in this thread;

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=746396

Zz.

 

[Duderonimous]

An update on Stanford's program-

I e-mailed the applied physics department in regards to whether or not their department has a qualifying exam that grad students must take just like the physics department does there.
This was their response:

"The Applied Physics Department does not have a comprehensive exam in the first year (or ever!) like the Physics Department does. Our basic philosophy is that if one is admitted into our PhD program, he or she is fully qualified in the basic undergraduate physics fields we expect of our students to be able to succeed in the required graduate level courses and to be successful in their research program.

Our students do need to pass a so-called PhD candidacy review before the end of the 2nd year. It does not include a written exam but rather an oral presentation on a research advance selected by the student in front of a faculty committee of 3. It is called the PhD qualifying exam."

So that must be good for EE undergrads concerned with going to a top accelerator program for grad school.

 

[Duderonimous]

Hello,

Aren't photonics and plasma electronics highly applicable to accelerators as well? Is RF engineering related to these subjects?
At UCLA the subset of the EE department that deals with accelerators are the photonics and plasma electronics group. They have a separate group for RF engineering and it seems that they focus on things unrelated to accelerators.
I know RF cavity design are a major part of accelerators but is this emphasized when an undergrad is taking RF classes? I feel more like these classes are tailored to students who want to study wireless communication.

Basically I want to figure out what upper-divsion undergrad EE classes are relevant to accelerators.
Are the following courses relevant (these are electives)?

ECE 402 Electromagnetic Fields and Applications (4)
Electrodynamics, wave equations, and reflection and scattering of waves. Radio frequency applications of transmission line techniques, and impedance matching. S-parameter design techniques. Couplers, hybrids, and filters. Experiments on impedance matching, RF circuits, antennas, and S-parameter measurements using Network Analyzers. 4 lectures/problem-solving.
Prerequisite: ECE 302.

ECE 408 Digital Signal Processing (3)
The analysis, design and implementation of Finite Impulse Response (FIR) and Infinite Impulse Response (IIR) filters. 3 lectures/problemsolving.
Prerequisite: ECE 306.

ECE 410 Microwave Engineering (3)
Principles of waveguide devices, and active microwave devices. Scattering parameter techniques. Design of microwave circuits and components. Design of receivers, transmitters, and radar systems. Microwave network analysis and system level testing. 4 lectures/problem-solving.
Prerequisites: ECE 402.

ECE 420 Lasers (4)
Introduction to ray optics, beam optics, diffraction, coherence, and phoronoptics. Fundamental principles and applications of lasers, energy levels and mechanisms of excitation, basic types of lasers. Q switching and modes. Modulation and detection. 4 lectures/problem-solving.
Prerequisites: ECE 302.

ECE 437 Introduction to Photonics (4)
The nature of light. Simple geometric optics. Thermal and atomic-line light sources, modulation of lights. Nonlinear optics and parametric oscillations. Luminescence. Display devices. Laser and laser light. Photodetectors, optical waveguides.
ECE 302 prerequisite, ECE 330 prerequisite, or corequisite.

ECE 448 R.F. Design (4)
Principles of R.F. design of transmitters and receivers utilizing solid state electronics devices and integrated circuits. RF design techniques including S-parameters, design of amplifiers, oscillators, mixers and detectors. 4 lectures/problem-solving. Prerequisite: ECE 402.

thanks

 

[ZapperZ]

In case some of you missed this, how would you like to get a free copy of a 335-page book on a guide to electron photo injectors? Yes? No?

http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.7539

It covers the photoinjector system and basic physics of photocathodes.

Zz.

 

[ChristinaJ]

Are the following courses relevant

Yes. All of them.