Physics Accelerator Physics - A field where jobs go begging

[JJminusI]

Of course that video isn't a recruitment video, the DOE required the labs to make those presentations to dive into the Stewardship process. Clearly, you just want to use this thread to trumpet what you see as the virtues of accelerator physics, so I'll leave you to it. However, I strongly disagree with your assessment of the relative ability of accelerator physicists to leave "the usual trappings of research and academia" as compared to other physics and engineering fields. Nor do I agree with your statement that it is people outside of academia who are confusing accelerator physics and HEP as students are, after all, within academia.

 

[ZapperZ]

Of course that video isn't a recruitment video, the DOE required the labs to make those presentations to dive into the Stewardship process.

But look at your first post here. You specifically attacked the video.

Clearly, you just want to use this thread to trumpet what you see as the virtues of accelerator physics, so I'll leave you to it.

No, I was trying to open up another area of physics that many people are ignorant to. I also highlighted the areas of detector physics and device physics. These are areas of studies that many incoming students are ignorant of, and areas of physics where many in the general public are not aware of.

However, I strongly disagree with your assessment of the relative ability of accelerator physicists to leave "the usual trappings of research and academia" as compared to other physics and engineering fields.

More than half of the students that when through our program went on to gain employment in SBIR companies and other private sectors.

Nor do I agree with your statement that it is people outside of academia who are confusing accelerator physics and HEP as students are, after all, within academia.

Stick around longer. You'll see it for yourself. Or, http://weblogs.dailypress.com/news/local/inside-newport-news/2011/11/tour_of_jeff_lab_in_newport_ne.html after a reporter took a tour of the JLab's FEL facility. He thinks it is a showcase for "particle physics" and had a "particle physics headache" at the end of it, even when a FEL is really a light source! There are many more examples of that.

Zz.

 

[JJminusI]

But look at your first post here. You specifically attacked the video.

The video does not need to be a recruitment video, nor do I need to think it is, for me to think that is an excellent example of what is wrong with how the job market in accelerator physics works.

More than half of the students that when through our program went on to gain employment in SBIR companies and other private sectors.

SBIR stands for Small Business Innovation and Research, that hardly qualifies as leaving research. Further, the largest funding agency for SBIR topics on accelerator research is DOE SC HEP (although nuclear physics is starting to catch up a bit what with the large number of eRHIC based calls lately), who is also the largest funder of academic accelerator physics. My point with this is that these workers are still getting a sizable chunk of their research money from HEP, they aren't leaving the field in any meaningful sense. My company gets a very large fraction of funding through HEP.

Stick around longer. You'll see it for yourself. Or, http://weblogs.dailypress.com/news/local/inside-newport-news/2011/11/tour_of_jeff_lab_in_newport_ne.html after a reporter took a tour of the JLab's FEL facility. He thinks it is a showcase for "particle physics" and had a "particle physics headache" at the end of it, even when a FEL is really a light source! There are many more examples of that.

Zz.

This is a really bad example, CEBAF is a particle physics machine first and an FEL second so the author isn't far off the mark. And the upgrade is concentrating entirely on the HEP mission (although it may not have been in 2011). Also, to the general public "particle physics" means "making particles do things" which is exactly what accelerator physics is, it does not mean high-energy physics, like it does to you and I.

 

[ZapperZ]

The video does not need to be a recruitment video, nor do I need to think it is, for me to think that is an excellent example of what is wrong with how the job market in accelerator physics works.

So a video about all the possible practical applications of accelerators is an example of what is wrong with the job market in accelerator physics? Er... OK then!

SBIR stands for Small Business Innovation and Research, that hardly qualifies as leaving research. Further, the largest funding agency for SBIR topics on accelerator research is DOE SC HEP (although nuclear physics is starting to catch up a bit what with the large number of eRHIC based calls lately), who is also the largest funder of academic accelerator physics. My point with this is that these workers are still getting a sizable chunk of their research money from HEP, they aren't leaving the field in any meaningful sense. My company gets a very large fraction of funding through HEP.

How does "research" somehow negates the fact that these are private companies? Does that make Apple a part of academia as well because they do "research"? My point is that accelerator physics, detector physics, and device physics graduates have a wider area to choose from than many other areas of physics if they want to stick to a career that is related to their expertise and knowledge. Is this point in dispute?

This is a really bad example, CEBAF is a particle physics machine first and an FEL second so the author isn't far off the mark. And the upgrade is concentrating entirely on the HEP mission (although it may not have been in 2011). Also, to the general public "particle physics" means "making particles do things" which is exactly what accelerator physics is, it does not mean high-energy physics, like it does to you and I.

But just because that is how the general public thinks doesn't mean it is correct and should be left uncorrected. Leaving it as such is a prime reason why what scientists say need not necessarily be how the public understands it. You mean one thing, but the public thinks it means something else. But more than that, you are contradicting yourself, because accelerator physics is MORE than just "making particles do things". We had just finished discussing that this field involves more than just beam physics!

Zz.

 

[JJminusI]

So a video about all the possible practical applications of accelerators is an example of what is wrong with the job market in accelerator physics? Er... OK then!

Yes, and I explained why in my first post.

How does "research" somehow negates the fact that these are private companies? Does that make Apple a part of academia as well because they do "research"? My point is that accelerator physics, detector physics, and device physics graduates have a wider area to choose from than many other areas of physics if they want to stick to a career that is related to their expertise and knowledge. Is this point in dispute?

A large fraction of the money these private companies take to do research related to the expertise of accelerator physicists comes from the same source that the academics take to do research: the DOE Office of Science, High Energy Physics. So, the job titles are different, I suppose, but the funding source, and thus the programmatic goals, are the same. You have attempted to use research primarily funded by DOE SC HEP as evidence that not all accelerator research is HEP. In that light, perhaps you can understand my skepticism that the areas these graduates have to choose from are indeed all that separate. They can choose to work at a national lab or they can choose to work for a private company, but in both cases they are getting most of their money from HEP. Even the Stewardship program is HEP funded!

But just because that is how the general public thinks doesn't mean it is correct and should be left uncorrected. Leaving it as such is a prime reason why what scientists say need not necessarily be how the public understands it. You mean one thing, but the public thinks it means something else. But more than that, you are contradicting yourself, because accelerator physics is MORE than just "making particles do things". We had just finished discussing that this field involves more than just beam physics!

Zz.

This is a different argument than the one you were making when you first posted that article (that the general public thinks that all accelerator physics is HEP). I'm not going to touch moving goal posts.

It is clear that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on a great many things in this field.

 

[thecage]

Anyone got experience on the job market for accelerator physicists is in Europe? According to this article published in the New Statesman, there is / will be a shortage of specialists due to the large number of planned projects:

https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/media/livacuk/quasargroup/files/press/Cockcroft,adv.pdf

 

[JJminusI]

Anyone got experience on the job market for accelerator physicists is in Europe? According to this article published in the New Statesman, there is / will be a shortage of specialists due to the large number of planned projects:

https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/media/livacuk/quasargroup/files/press/Cockcroft,adv.pdf

Of the two projects mentioned specifically in that article, EuroCirCol isn't isn't looking for an accelerator physicist. When I talked to one of the people doing the recruiting, they were looking for a particle physicist that can pick up the accelerator physics, not accelerator physicists. That person isn't from Liverpool though, and Liverpool is looking for PhD http://brightrecruits.com/job/8457/phd-opportunities-at-the-cockcroft-institute.

The EuPRAXIA program does want an accelerator physicist (I've only seen one posting from the groups in France and this current one is a re-post). I do get the feeling, based on recent presentations from the BELLA group on staged acceleration, that EuPAXIA will end up being far enough behind BELLA that most of the discovery science will be cracked before it gets going and the grueling (and under appreciated) work of making the systems work reliably for users will begin.

 

[Formula]

I didn't see it mentioned, so I'd like to say that there are a couple of NSF funded REUs in accelerator physics. If you get an offer, it can be a great way of trying out research in the field during undergrad!

The Cornell CLASSE REU (an offer I personally received, which made me look up accelerator physics and find this thread) seems like a really great one. I believe Indiana and UCLA also offer REU opportunities in the field.

 

[Amrator]

http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-hottest-job-in-physics

I'm actually going to consider a career in accelerator physics now.

 

[ZapperZ]

Here's another example of a new effort at advanced accelerator concepts:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article...ut-to-build-european-laser-plasma-accelerator

Note that in that article, the possible applications of the laser plasma wakefield accelerator did not even explicitly mentioned any application in high-energy physics (although there is a clear advantage for that field). Instead, the envisioned areas are industrial (and scientific) as a source of "high-quality x-ray".

I see major challenges left for electrons undergoing this acceleration scheme to get their energy spread and emittance to be within the requirement of a FEL. But hey, that is why they are still doing research, and it is why they continue to need accelerator physicists!

Zz.

 

[JJminusI]

FYI, the 2010 article from Symmetry Magazine started off with statements from Tony Favale of Advanced Energy Systems:

Business in the particle accelerator world is booming, as is business at Advanced Energy Systems, where Favale is president. His company, with offices in New York and New Jersey, is doing research and design work for the next generation of accelerators, which will be employed in electron lasers for the Navy, radiation detectors for the Department of Homeland Security, and more efficient particle colliders at US national laboratories.

But of the seven positions he was advertising in November, three were still unfilled in mid-March because Favale can’t find enough qualified accelerator scientists. The shortage is forcing the scientists and engineers he already employs to work overtime. Favale isn’t picky; he says he’d be comfortable hiring people with experience in other fields, such as vacuum or radio-frequency technology, and teaching them the accelerator science on the job.

If you were hoping for a long term job at AES (back in 2010), you're out of luck as the auction of their assets started today. Word is that they missed out on the action of making superconducting modules for LCLS-II and also lost some Phase II SBIR contracts that they were counting on and couldn't keep the doors open anymore. This field can be very brutal on its members, especially because hiring is so slow.

 

[JJminusI]

ESRF is embarking on a large, 150 million Euro, upgrade to its machine. Helpfully, you can see all of the hiring they plan to do over the next 5 years, which include that upgrade, here. This listing also includes their projections for retirements, so it isn't just about the upgrade by any stretch. As you can see, they want engineers and technicians of all sorts, but they don't want permanent scientists: one position! They do want a rather large number of temporary scientists to run the x-ray beam lines (i.e. not accelerator physicists). This pretty well puts paid to the idea that you don't have to do a postdoc and that there aren't enough PhDs being trained for the field of accelerator physics. The vast majority of jobs around an accelerator don't require much, if any, knowledge of accelerator physics and these facilities definitely want you to do a postdoc.

 

[ModusPwnd]

I'm sure some physics grads would like to fill those technician and engineering positions. I would. Most technical endeavors are like you say, only a couple scientists are needed but an army of engineers and technicians are hired.

 

[JJminusI]

I'm sure some physics grads would like to fill those technician and engineering positions. I would. Most technical endeavors are like you say, only a couple scientists are needed but an army of engineers and technicians are hired.

This is totally true, and I encourage people who are interested in being a technician or an engineer to look at accelerators for work, it can be a lot of fun. This may be a conversation I am having with myself, but when you read material on the field of accelerator physics "begging" for workers, they regularly appeal to the lack of PhDs. Both the article that started this thread in 2010 and the one from a few[/PLAIN] months ago focus on PhDs.

For example, slide 4 in this presentation to the High Energy Physics Advisory Panel worries about the fact that only ~15 PhDs are produced in accelerator physics and compares that to the ~3000 full time employees that DoE Office of Science labs employ to run accelerators. Comparison of these two numbers alights entirely over how many of those FTEs are roles that use an accelerator physics PhD. At the same time, folks at SLAC are challenging the DoE on this front, telling HEP that SLAC can't possibly employ all the people who are applying for post doctoral positions in accelerator physics. Word is that the labs that are having trouble recruiting are in less desirable locations: FRIB in East Lansing (they have other problems, too), Cornell in Ithaca, Los Alamos in the middle of nowhere. AES was out in the middle of Long Island, 90 minutes from the city without traffic.

 

[Amrator]

In accelerator physics, what software do you guys use to design the accelerators? Do you guys use CADs or EDAs?

 

[JJminusI]

In accelerator physics, what software do you guys use to design the accelerators? Do you guys use CADs or EDAs?

The particle beam lines (as opposed to the x-ray beam lines) are first designed in a specialty code for accelerators like elegant, IMPACT or synergia. After that the engineers use SolidWorks (where I have worked) or SolidEdge (SLAC and FNAL) to create a model of the whole beam line. I don't know what EDAs are, so maybe that tells you all you need to know about that?

 

[ZapperZ]

In accelerator physics, what software do you guys use to design the accelerators? Do you guys use CADs or EDAs?

There is no one software. It also depends on what you are doing or designing.

There are codes for particle beam dynamics, such as PARMELA out of Los Alamos.

If one is designing structures, one first have to model these structures. Finite element packages such as COMSOL, Microwave Studios, etc... have all been used.

Then, once these have been designed, then the task of producing the engineering diagrams to have them fabricated and installed will require 3D CAD programs.

There are many, MANY more packages, codes, and even homemade codes, that I haven't mentioned here. It is why computational work is a significant part of many Particle Accelerator schools.

Zz.

 

[Amrator]

Awesome. Thanks, guys. So far, accelerator physics sounds awesome. I plan on transferring to Illinois Institute of Technology as a physics major from a community college. The nice thing about IIT is they really emphasize computational science. http://science.iit.edu/physics/computational-science-and-physics-illinois-tech

 

[Rabu001]

This is amazing, honestly thank you so much for sharing it with us.

I know i am a little bit late to the party, but can anyone please name some job positions that can be held by carriers of this degree?

 

[JJminusI]

I don't know what you mean by "job positions that can be held by carriers of this degree." Any job or jobs in the field? What degree level? Bachelors? Masters? PhD?

The best resource for job postings in the field of accelerators that I have found are:
USPAS jobs board (can be slow to update) - http://uspas.fnal.gov/opportunities/jobs/index.shtml
Brightrecruits - http://brightrecruits.com/jobs/accelerators-neuron-and-light-sources/
Lightsources - http://www.lightsources.org/jobs
INSPIRE (use tag physics.acc-phys) - https://inspirehep.net/collection/Jobs

Rarely, accelerator physics jobs will show up on Physics Today and the like, but most of these jobs aren't considered academic (wrongly, in my opinion) and so they tend to get filled more like regular jobs. Indeed and Glassdoor will also turn up results if you search accelerator physics, but there is a lot of noise in the searches. For me, half the results are for karate instructors on Glassdoor, Indeed is almost all medical physics jobs.

 

[ersa17]

I've worked on accelerators in industry for the past 8 years as an electronics technician. I've been working on a BS in physics for most of those years, taking classes in my spare time - partly for enjoyment, partly for career advancement. After a long road, its time to decide on an MS, and was considering USPAS. This thread popped up in my Google search, and was pleased to hear my field of interest is in demand.

Since I'm only a part-timer, the thought of taking classes at USPAS in two week chunks or online with a 5 year time limit is very tempting. I don't believe I'll complete a PhD, so I'm wondering if you see value in a MS from USPAS/UI or is this something best left to those with a PhD?

I am also planning to pursue my MS in Physics (specializing in accelerator physics).
Could you share your experience or your current status?? Would love to hear about it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Just so you know, he hasn't been here in almost 9 years.

 

[ersa17]

Just so you know, he hasn't been here in almost 9 years.

Thanks for letting me know. Didn't realize it.

 

[StatGuy2000]

@ZapperZ , I know you had first started this thread back in 2010, where you had argued that there was plentiful employment opportunities in the area of accelerator physics.

I was wondering if you have any information to update the rest of PF community regarding the demand for those in accelerator physics as of 2021.

 

[JJminusI]

I am also planning to pursue my MS in Physics (specializing in accelerator physics).
Could you share your experience or your current status?? Would love to hear about it.

I know someone who did it and I went to a fair few USPAS courses myself during my graduate studies. The courses vary in quality from decent to very good depending on how many times the instructor has taught at USPAS. Some lessons I learned the hard way, that you might find useful:

1) Networking is just as important as the content of the classes. Talk to the teachers, talk the fellow students, talk to everyone.

2) The compressed schedule means you should treat the problem sets like a test. Don't start on problem 1, read them all, figure out which ones you can do quickly and do them. Then come back and do the harder problems. Don't spin your wheels for too long on a problem either, talk to the teacher, TA, or other students.

3) Do not stay up late doing the homework. My personal rule was at 11 PM I'd start cleaning up the work that I had, so that I could relax for 30-45 minutes before being in bed at midnight. You are going to have to do all of this again tomorrow, get some sleep.

4) Exercise and get out of the hotel once a day. It was very good for my sanity. It doesn't have to be a big thing, but 30 minutes of concentrating on something that isn't course content was great for my morale, mental health, and sleep cycle.

5) The food varies by hotel from terrible to pretty decent. It tends to be pretty heavy, so eat less than you think you want and have snacks on hand to cover.

If you decide to do the project, that is probably the hardest part. The best case for this is if you already work in some accelerator-relevant field and you can convert some task/project that you are already working on into a thesis. Pick something you genuinely want to do. This document is going to summarize your expertise in a narrow area of accelerator physics and, when you go out looking for work, employers are going to expect you to use it to their benefit. Don't just pluck low hanging fruit in the hopes you'll get to do something "better" later, that is a hard row to hoe.

Everyone prioritizes PhDs over masters holders. Because, generally, the PhDs have spent more time learning more things and know more people in the field. At a lab, you will probably end up as a system expert for either an entire system (small, singular systems, say a kicker magnet) or part of a system (larger systems, say the RF chain). My experience at the labs is mostly outside the US, but the group leaders and people with upward mobility all have PhDs. In industry, we preferred PhDs for the above reasons. That doesn't mean we won't call you for an interview, but unless your particular skill is exactly what we need when we need it and we expect to have enough work to keep you busy for a few years doing that, we'll go with the PhD first because we just don't have the head count to have a narrow specialist on staff.

I hope you found that useful.

 

[berkeman]

I know someone who did it and I went to a fair few USPAS courses myself during my graduate studies. The courses vary in quality from decent to very good depending on how many times the instructor has taught at USPAS. Some lessons I learned the hard way, that you might find useful:

It looks like for now the instruction is online distance learning. That's unfortunate to lose some of the hands-on experience...

https://uspas.fnal.gov/

*** COVID-19 Update ***

Our winter session with Texas A&M University will be offered online and will be expanded to 4 weeks from January 25 - February 19, 2021 with classes held via Zoom. Details can be found here.

Our summer 2021 session with Stony Brook University will most likely be moved online as well. Please watch this space for updates.

 

[Jody]

To the OP:

You should link to some job posts.

Otherwise, it's only talk.

The post was 11 years ago.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The post was 11 years ago.

Given how old this thread is, perhaps the moderators should consider closing it?

Because the title is suggesting that demand for accelerator physics is still strong, which might have been true 11 years ago, but may not be so today.

 

[berkeman]

Given how old this thread is, perhaps the moderators should consider closing it?

Because the title is suggesting that demand for accelerator physics is still strong, which might have been true 11 years ago, but may not be so today.

Good point. I'll tie off the thread for now. If @ZapperZ wants to re-open it, we can.