Action Principles in Continuum Mechanics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the search for literature that applies Lagrangian or action principles in the context of continuum mechanics, specifically fluid mechanics and elasticity. Participants explore the availability of comprehensive resources similar to Landau's works in mechanics and electromagnetism, while addressing the challenges and limitations of deriving certain fluid dynamics equations from action principles.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about books that comprehensively use action principles in fluid mechanics and elasticity, similar to Landau's approach.
  • Another participant suggests A. Sommerfeld's "Lectures on Theoretical Physics" as a potential resource, noting its value despite being in German.
  • A later reply mentions that it seems proven that Navier-Stokes equations cannot be derived from an action principle, suggesting limitations in applying these principles to viscous fluid dynamics.
  • Participants discuss a book that claims to address fluid dynamics from an action principle perspective, while expressing skepticism about its credibility based on reviews.
  • There is mention of using differential forms as an alternative approach that may successfully derive Navier-Stokes equations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of action principles to fluid dynamics, with some suggesting limitations while others propose alternative methods. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the effectiveness of the mentioned resources and approaches.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the challenges in deriving certain equations from action principles, indicating a dependence on specific assumptions and definitions within the field of fluid mechanics.

bolbteppa
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Is there any book that does what Landau does in Fluid Mechanics and Theory of Elasticity, only using a Lagrangian/Action-principles the whole way through?

I can really only find brief tiny descriptions like this one in books on other topics, is there nothing that does for fluids/elasticity like what Landau does for mechanics and em?
 
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I'm sorry you are not finding help at the moment. Is there any additional information you can share with us?
 
The only source I know is

A. Sommerfeld, Lectures on Theoretical Physics

It's anyway a marvelous theoretical-physics book series (6 volumes). Particularly vol. 6 about partial differential equations is great.

I once worked this out for myself for a student seminar on hydrodynamics. Unfortunately I have this only in German. Perhaps even this helps a bit, because there are many formulae.

http://theory.gsi.de/~vanhees/faq/hydro/hydro.html
http://theory.gsi.de/~vanhees/faq-pdf/hydro.pdf
 
I'm very appreciative of your notes, thank you. I will use google translate to refer to them when I sit down to do this properly. I looked in Sommerfeld and from memory found Lanczos gives a better presentation of the same material, but I'll check it again.

Regarding fluid mechanics, my main concern is that one apparently it's been proven that can't derive Navier-Stokes or any viscous fluid dynamics from an action principle (i.e. friction, a velocity dependent potential), so at best we can do chapter 1 of Landau via action principles + Noether's theorem and no more... However this book

www.amazon.com/Hamilton-Type-Principle-Fluid-Dynamics-Magnetohydrodynamics/dp/3211249648/[/URL]

claims to do it, and apparently explains the flaw in the old approach, page 16 - 17:

[url]http://books.google.ie/books?id=ONGsaXO1VToC&lpg=PA18&ots=3Le8YeDRaS&dq=Angel%20Fierros%20Palacios&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q=Angel%20Fierros%20Palacios&f=false[/url]

While it might be cranky, the only review I can find

[url]http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/andp.200610224/abstract[/url]

gives the book a bad review but doesn't even mention this important issue, it gives out about the book for absolutely ridiculous reasons tbh so it's not a credible source.

The other approach is differential forms, which apparently can derive Navier-Stokes nice enough, just have to find a nice presentation.

Anybody have any thoughts on these, it's be great to read them.
 
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