Alternative theories being tested by Gravity probe B

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The Gravity Probe B satellite is testing two predictions of General Relativity: the N-S geodetic precession and the E-W frame-dragging effect. Several alternative theories, including Self Creation Cosmology and Moffat's Nonsymmetric Gravitational Theory, are also being evaluated against these predictions. The GP-B mission is currently in the data analysis phase, with results expected to be published soon, which could challenge or confirm General Relativity. The experiment aims to provide precise measurements that could distinguish between these theories, despite some skepticism regarding the necessity of the experiment given the strong support for General Relativity. Overall, the outcomes of GP-B could significantly impact our understanding of gravitational theories.
  • #271
Fred, we could all add in extra adjustments in an ad hoc way to make our predictions fit any set of results. On this thread I have limited the discussion to predictions made in published papers or at least to those in eprints on the physics ArXiv.

I find it highly contrived to require your idea of using a "the appearance or disappearance of a discontinuity of gravity in the neighbourhood of the Earth" to fit both the LLR results and the latest GP-B glimpse.

That notwithstanding, if you publish on the ArXiv with a definite falsifiable set of predictions for GP-B then I shall be happy to include them in the 'list'.

Garth
 
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  • #272
I have also recently found that Jin He's "Absolute Relativity" has been removed from the physics ArXiv, I shall therefore remove it from the list of viable theories being tested by GP-B.

To remind ourselves, that list now stands:

  1. Einstein's General Relativity(GR)
  2. Brans-Dicke theory (BD)
  3. Moffat's Nonsymmetric Gravitational Theory (NGT)
  4. Stanley Robertson's Newtonian Gravity Theory (NG),
  5. F. Henry-Couannier's Dark Gravity Theory (DG).
  6. Alexander and Yunes' prediction for the Chern-Simons gravity theory (CS).
  7. Kris Krogh's Wave Gravity Theory (WG)
  8. Hongya Liu & J. M. Overduin prediction of the http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/ApJ/journal/issues/ApJ/v538n1/50681/50681.text.html?erFrom=5252751197746712308Guest#sc8 gravity theory (KK).
The predictions are now:

GP-B Geodetic gross precession (North-South).

  1. GR = -6606 mas/yr.
  2. BD = -(3\omega + 4)/(3\omega + 6) 6.606 arcsec/yr. where now \omega >60.
  3. NGT = -(6606 - a small \sigma correction) mas/yr.
  4. NG = -6606 mas/yr.
  5. DG = -6606 mas/yr.
  6. CS = -6606 mas/yr.
  7. WG = -6606 mas/yr.
  8. KK = -(1 + b/6 - 3b2 + ...) 6606 mas/yr. where 0 < b < 0.07.

GPB gravitomagnetic frame dragging gross precession (East-West).

  1. GR = -39 mas/yr.
  2. BD = -(2\omega + 3)/(2\omega + 4) 39 mas/yr.
  3. NGT = -39 mas/yr.
  4. NG = -39 mas/yr.
  5. DG = 0 mas/yr.
  6. CS = -39 mas/yr. + CS correction
  7. WG = 0 mas/yr.
  8. KK = -39 mas/yr.

You can see for yourselves the present state of the results in a series of slides of a lecture given by Francis Everitt at Cornell University on the 12th November 2007. http://colloquia.physics.cornell.edu/11-12-2007/cornellpres_files/v3_document.htm .

The pertinent slides are slide 3: http://colloquia.physics.cornell.edu/11-12-2007/cornellpres_files/v3_slide0341.htm
and the slide: http://colloquia.physics.cornell.edu/11-12-2007/cornellpres_files/v3_slide0426.htm

These last two slides clearly show an inconsistency with the GR prediction at the 1 \sigma confidence level.

Einstein expectation:
-6571 \pm 1* mas
4-gyro result (1 \sigma) for 85 days (12 Dec 04 -- 4 Mar 05)
-6632 \pm 43 mas

(* -6606 mas + 7 mas (solar geodetic) + 28 \pm1 mas (guide star proper motion))

We note that this November 1 \sigma confidence level result is inconsistent with all the above geodetic predictions except KK!

We continue to wait for the 3 \sigma confidence level results in the "final" review now scheduled for May 2008!

Happy New 2008 Year :smile:
Garth
 
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  • #273
Hi, Garth,
You made a second mistake!
Instead of removal, my paper stands there sound on Arxiv.

I studied the origin of your mistake. If not true, please forgive me.
You posted my paper directed to 5th version as
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0604/0604084v5.pdf
Such kind of link fails if the original paper is updated. This is because Arxiv let you directly link to PDF ONLY IF the required PDF version is current version!

My updated version is
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0604084
or
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0604084v8

If you want to post my fifth version, that is OK if you choose:
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0604084v5
but you choice of PDF post failed as I explained above!
 
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  • #274
I have a correction to the equation in post #255, it's 'arctan' rather than '2 arctan', and the positions of the second r and the r' are reversed above the line. I'd only just found it at the time - there's also a slightly more accurate version of the equation, but both give the same numbers for GP-B, which are almost identical to those from GR.

And having thought about it, I would appreciate it if you'd put PSG back on the list Garth - which it seems you'll be posting again anyway. I'm sure you agree the theory hasn't been falsified, and there's a prediction for frame dragging in a peer reviewed journal, of - 39 mas/yr. Like NG, PSG gives the same as GR for both effects - as you pointed out (so acknowledging the basic mathematics), the experiment can't distinguish between the two interpretations for the geodetic. But unlike GR, PSG hasn't been fully worked through yet, and other smaller effects may later be taken into account. At present, PSG has recovered better than other theories, where changes and extra adjustments have been made - the geodetic equation arises simply from applying the main postulate of the original theory, exactly as it was.

Thank you, Jonathan
 
  • #275
Garth said:
Fred, we could all add in extra adjustments in an ad hoc way to make our predictions fit any set of results. On this thread I have limited the discussion to predictions made in published papers or at least to those in eprints on the physics ArXiv.

I find it highly contrived to require your idea of using a "the appearance or disappearance of a discontinuity of gravity in the neighbourhood of the Earth" to fit both the LLR results and the latest GP-B glimpse.

That notwithstanding, if you publish on the ArXiv with a definite falsifiable set of predictions for GP-B then I shall be happy to include them in the 'list'.

Garth

Hi Garth,

It appears that my preferred frame effect is actually not ruled out by LLR data (it is not Lorentz violating)! So i cannot exclude this possible prediction. The theory has a preferred fram effect and th predictions crucially depend on it: The prediction for DG that i gave here (0 frame dragging + same geodetic as in GR) is valid in case my preferred frame is attached to the earth.
If it is attached to the CMB or sun or the galaxy the prediction is the same for frame-dragging and geodetic effect but i have an additional preferred frame effect that you did
mention on this site sometime ago: This effect has no free parameter and gives a clear signature: it would appear as an extraoscillation with1 year period and 40 mArcsec amplitude giving a contribution in both direction (N-S and E-W).

Since you gave here the KK prediction which has a free parameter, it would not be chocking to add this extra preferred frame contribution multiplied by a parameter equal to
zero or one (corresponding to the two possible preferred frames) which makes my theory already much more predictive than KK!
I put this in my latest arXiv version. (gr-qc/0610079)

best regards

Fred
 
  • #276
henryco said:
Since you gave here the KK prediction which has a free parameter, it would not be chocking to add this extra preferred frame contribution multiplied by a parameter equal to
zero or one (corresponding to the two possible preferred frames) which makes my theory already much more predictive than KK!


Fred

Hi Garth,

Rethincking about it, i realize that since you give the prediction for the integrated drift on one year on this forum, my one year oscillation integrated preferred frame effect will anyway not contribute.
So the better is to keep the predictions as they are and just mention that the drifts may not be steady ones and this may provide another discriminating info.

Is that possible?
regards


Fred
 
  • #277
henryco said:
Hi Garth,

Rethincking about it, i realize that since you give the prediction for the integrated drift on one year on this forum, my one year oscillation integrated preferred frame effect will anyway not contribute.
So the better is to keep the predictions as they are and just mention that the drifts may not be steady ones and this may provide another discriminating info.

Is that possible?
regards


Fred

Fred, you have already done so!

Theories are only considered here if they make a falsifiable prediction, or pair of predictions to be tested against the published results.

Predictions have to take into account all factors that influence the result and not just tailored to match results as they come in.

Garth
 
  • #278
Garth said:
Fred, you have already done so!

Theories are only considered here if they make a falsifiable prediction, or pair of predictions to be tested against the published results.

Predictions have to take into account all factors that influence the result and not just tailored to match results as they come in.

Garth

I have already done what ?

Fred
 
  • #279
henryco said:
I have already done what ?
henryco: "to keep the predictions as they are and just mention that the drifts may not be steady ones and this may provide another discriminating info."

Remember others will need convincing that your theory's predictions are being verified or falsified by the results of the experiment. So a clear set of predictions would be good.

Garth
 
  • #280
hejin said:
Hi, Garth,
You made a second mistake!
Instead of removal, my paper stands there sound on Arxiv.

I studied the origin of your mistake. If not true, please forgive me.
You posted my paper directed to 5th version as
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0604/0604084v5.pdf
Such kind of link fails if the original paper is updated. This is because Arxiv let you directly link to PDF ONLY IF the required PDF version is current version!

My updated version is
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0604084
or
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0604084v8

If you want to post my fifth version, that is OK if you choose:
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0604084v5
but you choice of PDF post failed as I explained above!

It is interesting to observe that you can reference an arxiv paper which is not published in a refereed journal. Recently, I also referenced my arxiv paper :
http://arxiv.org/abs/0712.1110 (on the same subject) and I was banned for this because I "tried to distribute a personal theory". The paper mentioned above is in addition an extension of a previous paper which was published in a refereed journal. I'm curious whether I will be banned again. Furthermore, I have noticed many posts which contain references to un-refereed Arxiv papers without these persons being banned.

Rudi Van Nieuwenhove
 
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  • #281
Hi Rudi!

On this thread I (not being a Moderator) have allowed to be included brief references to papers on the ArXiv that have not been published in refereed journals, yet that do make some sense, and which make a definite falsifiable prediction.

This seems to have been allowed by the Moderators as the predictions will soon be able to be falsified, or just possibly otherwise.

As you can read some rough edges have been left...

Roll on May (??)! :wink:

Garth
 
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  • #282
Hi Garth,

I see today ArXiv has taken down the paper "A critical analysis of the GP-B mission. I: on the impossibility of a reliable measurement of the gravitomagnetic precession of the GP-B gyroscopes," by Gerhard Forst:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0712.3934

The comment field says: "This submission has been withdrawn by the arXiv administrators because 'G.Forst' is a pseudonym of a physicist based in Italy who is unwilling to submit articles under his own name, in violation of arXiv policies"

It's gone now, but I didn't see anything of substance in the paper. The references it cited did not show what was attributed to them.

Kris
 
  • #283
Problems getting to KK paper, known compatibility problem, it may be a fault this end.
 
  • #284
Hi Gath you asked for theories that can be tested via Gravity probe B.


I have half of one that is not yet fully published or finished but I would like to mention it as it is an alternative or rather a modification to GR.
My work is based primarily on looking at what might exist beyond the light velocity barrier so it obviously involves particles with imaginary mass. My real problem is that I don't yet have the precision to make many exact predictions. What is clear though is that the model doesn't easily allow curved space times. At the moment I have gravity mapped as 'accelerating inertial frames' - the frame itself never sees the acceleration.
As far as I'm aware the model should give pretty much identical results to standard GR with one big exception - there should be tachyonic 'shadows'.
Another thing my model predicts is that gravity may be purely classical and have no lower quantum limit - in other words it can never exhibit interference patterns.

Obviously Gravity Probe B isn't going to answer many questions for my theory, but it wasn't designed to - my answers only really deviate from GR above the speed of light. (My theory forbids the folding of space)

I am working on designing a verifiable experiment that can detect tachyonic behavior but I am only an amateur with a tiny budget and other priorities so it is years away.
 
  • #285
lucien86 we have strict guidelines here about not discussing personal theories except on the Independent Research Forum, unless they have already been published in a peer reviewed journal.

In this thread I am including theories already published on the physics ArXiv as well if they make falsifiable predictions for the GP-B experiment.

I suggest you submit your theory to the IR Forum having first followed their guidelines for submission.

Garth
 
  • #286
Sure - my whole point is that my theory is not ready to publish there. Half finished means exactly that. As for the IR forum the rules there are so strict that it is actually easier to get published in a big magazine like Nature. I am nowhere near getting published anywhere at the moment - sorry to bother you. - Lucien
 
  • #287
Data Analysis Extended Again!

The GP-B website has had a revamp - although there are no new results to report.
GP-B Program Extended Through September 2008, and Possibly March 2010

On November 2, 2007, we convened the 17th meeting of our external Science Advisory Committee (SAC) to review our progress in the refinement of the GP-B experimental results. The subsequent SAC report noted "the truly extraordinary progress that had been made in data analysis since SAC-16 [March 23-24, 2007]" and unanimously concluded "that GP-B is on an accelerating path toward reaching good science results."

Following a peer-reviewed bridging proposal to NASA's Science Mission Directorate (SMD) and actions by Stanford and a private donor, the GP-B program has been extended at least through September 2008. Furthermore, SMD opened the opportunity for GP-B to submit a proposal this month to its Senior Review process. This is a bi-annual event in which ongoing NASA science programs undergo a peer-review to determine which of those programs NASA should continue and/or extend in order to achieve the greatest scientific gain. Assuming a successful Senior Review, GP-B will be extended one final time, from October 2008 through March 2010.
There are two unexpected experimental errors that are being reduced.
1. A time variation in the polhode motion of the gyroscopes, which creates complications in the gyro scale factor calibrations (conversion of electrical signals to angles).
2. Much larger than expected classical misalignment torques on the gyroscopes, attributable to “patch effect” (contact potential difference) interactions between the gyro rotors and their housings.

Although these anomalies reduced the best precision obtainable from the 1% goal they still hope to achieve about 2% for the frame-dragging effect and 0.02% for the geodetic effect.

During 2006-early 2007, we made good progress understanding the cause of these complications (and developing sound methodologies for working through them, culminating in an announcement of first results at the annual meeting of the American Physical Society in April 2007. Since that time, the team has continued to improve the results in a number of ways. As experimentalists, we make no assumptions about Einstein’s theory being right or wrong; rather, we collected data, and we are doing everything humanly possible to maximize the precision and accuracy of the final results—whether or not they agree with Einstein’s predictions.

For newbies to this thread a basic explanation of the experiment is given in a slide show on their website.

We note the Seeing General relativity Directly slide remains the replaced one, which does not give the game away. Remember the http://colloquia.physics.cornell.edu/11-12-2007/cornellpres_files/v3_slide0341.htm gave some interesting results inconsistent with GR at the one \sigma (68%) confidence level!

Garth
 
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  • #288
Hello Garth and everyone,

well, it seems GP-B may be a long road. My paper on the geodetic effect got through peer review, it's at

http://journalgp.awardspace.com/journal/0202/020203.pdf

PSG gives the same predictions as GR and NG, hope to see it on the list with them, presumably along with Jin He's absolute relativity. Does anyone have a guess as to when the 3 sigma results will be announced? J
 
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  • #289
Well first of all Jonathan congratulations on having your paper published!

I do have a problem in including it in the list because in that paper you say:
PSG has the same values as GR for both effects being measured by Gravity Probe
B (for frame dragging it is - 39 mas/yr, using more recently released orbit figures). But
unlike GR, PSG has not been fully worked through, and it may be able to explain this
∼ 61 mas/yr anomaly when various smaller effects have been taken into account.

So what hard and fast prediction are you making for the results of this experiment? It seems that you are hedging your bets. The sign of a good scientific theory is that it can be falsified! As indeed my 2002 SCC proved to be! (darn!)

Although this isn't the place to discuss the detail of your theory, and you might like to start a new thread on PSG, as a published alternative theory, to do just that, my initial reaction is to be suspicious of your "time slowing" concept. Time on any particular world-line passes at the tautological rate of "one second per second". Time dilation between two clocks on different world-lines reveals a warping of the space-time continuum otherwise known as curvature and we are back to GR again.

Secondly I have a query about your actual calculation. If there is no curvature then orbital mechanics have to be explained by some type of Newtonian gravitational force accelerating the orbiting masses off their geodesic straight line trajectories. Such an acceleration would produce a Thomas Precession, that is unless you are denying SR as well, which acts to reduce the geodetic effect. I see no mention of that in your paper.

If you like, as it is published, I will include PSG giving a prediction equal to GR.

And I fully expect we will have to wait until 2010 to get the 3 \sigma results! :rolleyes:

Garth
 
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  • #290
Thanks Garth,

I have the same predictions as GR, but if the anomaly found in the early geodetic results remains (and the delaying of the May announcement perhaps makes it slightly more likely that it is still there) I don't think that everyone will say "Ah well, GR was falsified, too bad". In that instance things would be on hold until some very good clear explanation for the 61 +/- 43 mas/yr turns up. By then the value of the anomaly would be known more accurately, so something might eventually explain it, either from analysing the experimental setup or from theory.

About the slowing of time - I put the word "slowing" in inverted commas in the paper to make it clear that it's not literal, either in GR or PSG. But as I'm making the point there that in PSG it happens by the same factor as the slowing of the motion of light and matter in the field, the word "slowing" is justified.

Though you say it doesn't, the paper actually does mention the question of a Newtonian type force. The conceptual basis removes the need for one, just as curvature does - an orbiting object is in freefall. If one conceptual basis can make an orbiting object be in freefall, then another can, as you'll see when it's published in full (or we can argue about it then! but I think you'll agree). But meanwhile it would be odd to rule out all possible conceptual pictures other than curvature as capable of that.

Anyway, best wishes,

Jonathan
 
  • #291
Ps

PS. To clarify the first point above, the anomaly is too small to falsify everything at the GR value instantly, making KK theory the new standard view. Both GR and PSG could potentially survive that, but both could be falsified if the final results contained figures further from the GR values.

In the paper I've speculated briefly about the anomaly, but it's too small to be major issue, and doesn't detract from the prediction pair I've given, with mathematical backing for the geodetic prediction. After the equation, the paper says

"This means that PSG is so far consistent with experiment, as a geodetic effect of similar value to that in GR and PSG has been measured."

The final results may change that preliminary measurement, but "of similar value" relates to the same thing. J
 
  • #292
JonathanK said:
Though you say it doesn't, the paper actually does mention the question of a Newtonian type force. The conceptual basis removes the need for one, just as curvature does - an orbiting object is in freefall.

The question is not whether the gyro is in free-fall, a satellite in Newtonian theory is falling freely, but whether the free-fall state is one where the gyro is accelerating away from its geodesic path, i.e. is it on a 'straight' geodesic trajectory, or not?

If it is on a 'straight' geodesic trajectory, as in GR, then the shape of the orbit is explained by the curvature of space-time and there is no intrinsic acceleration or Thomas precession; if it is not, as in Newtonian gravity, then there is an accelerating force, the Newtonian gravitational force, with the consequence that the gyro suffers a Thomas precession, which in Newtonian gravity (+ SR flat space-time) produces a precession equal to one third of the GR geodetic precession.

As an aside, because of this the initial geodetic result of GP-B has falsified Newton to a high confidence level! For the same reason I am also sure that it has falsified PSG, if that theory does not include space-time curvature.

So my question Jonathan is, "Does PSG include curvature? And if not, how does it produce an elliptical orbit without accelerating the gyro away from its 'straight' geodesic trajectory?"

Garth
 
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  • #293
There's no acceleration, for the same reasons as there's none in GR. The conceptual picture is one that is surprisingly like curvature, and yet it comes from flat space - it involves a small cluster of lateral jumps. An orbiting object thinks it is traveling in a straight line, and follows a curve only because the nature of space has been changed in a fundamental way.

I have a book on the theory of time, of which PSG is the gravity part ("Motion through time"), also hope to publish a longer paper with the whole conceptual basis - have wondered whether it can be a series of papers, but the concepts are so interdependent that it's difficult to find a dividing line. At present I have published some of the predictions, but not all of the theory.

In the book the concepts explain very much from very few starting assumptions, but the "smoking gun" evidence provided is an explanation of exactly how equation 4 of the first published paper was derived. It directly gives all the speeds on the path of a falling object from infinity, from knowing the speed at a given point. It agrees with numbers from Newton's theory to 12 decimal places, and goes to zero at the Schwartzchild radius of a black hole. I've hoped to show you the theory for some time, look forward to hearing your opinion. Thanks, J
 
  • #294
Ps

PS perhaps I can give some indication of the kind of thing I mean, using an analogy. When light is refracted around a curve, for example when traveling through an index gradient refractive medium on Earth, does the light undergo an acceleration? No, instead it thinks it is traveling in a straight line, but what it is traveling through has been changed in a fundamental way (without curvature into an extra dimension), and this makes it follow a curve. PSG has something analogous to a refractive medium, which matter responds to at the Planck scale as light does.

Jonathan
 
  • #295
The latest GP-B website Update:
================================
GP-B STATUS UPDATE -- MAY 23, 2008
================================

NASA's 2008 SENIOR REVIEW OF GP-B

In March 2008 at NASA's invitation, we submitted a proposal to the Science Mission Directorate, Astrophysics Division Senior Review of Operating Missions (Sr. Review), requesting a final 18-month (October 2008 through March 2010), $3.8M extension of GP-B to complete the data analysis and publish the results. In April, as part of the Sr. Review process, GP-B Principal Investigator, Francis Everitt, and Program Manager, William Bencze, made a presentation to the Sr. Review Committee at NASA Headquarters, where it appeared to have been favorably received.

Thus, we were greatly surprised last week to discover that the Sr. Review had recommended that NASA not grant our final funding extension, particularly since another NASA committee--the GP-B Science Advisory Committee (SAC -- http://einstein.stanford.edu/MISSION/mission2.html#sac), chaired by relativistic physicist Clifford Will--stated in its report following the November 2007 meeting: "The SAC was impressed with the truly extraordinary progress that has been made in data analysis since SAC-16 [Mar 2007] Š and we now agree that GP-B is on an accelerating path toward reaching good science results."

The Sr. Review evaluation is an unexpected setback, but we are determined to push ahead and drive to the very best possible result within the resources available.

THE PLIGHT OF FUNDAMENTAL PHYSICS RESEARCH AT NASA

While the Sr. Review outcome has ramifications for GP-B, in broader terms, it points to the challenge of finding support for fundamental physics experiments within the NASA culture of observational missions. This has been an ongoing issue within NASA for decades. In the 1990s, fundamental physics research experiments were scattered over several divisions of NASA, which led in 1999, to the blue-ribbon NASA Advisory Council (NAC) recommending to the NASA Administrator that the agency create a "single home room" for physics missions in space so that these missions would be given the support and visibility they deserved.

The 1999 NAC committee's advice was never heeded. Furthermore, during the 2004 restructuring and consolidation of NASA divisions, the already small budget for fundamental physics research was cut to zero in the NASA Exploration Directorate, entirely eliminating fundamental physics research from that division. This left the Science Mission Directorate (SMD) as the only home for fundamental physics experiments like GP-B. However, in the SMD, physics experiments had to compete directly with the NASA Great Observatories and other astrophysics missions for pieces of an already-decimated research budget. It is no criticism of the SMD Sr. Review to say that of the ten missions under review, GP-B as a physics experiment rather than an observatory was quite unlike the rest and almost impossible to fit within a common intellectual framework. Regrettably, since NASA has failed to establish a fundamental physics research division, several missions besides GP-B have suffered. If such a division existed, we believe the agency's support for the proper completion of GP-B would continue to be strong.

THE CONTINUED RELEVANCE & IMPORTANCE OF GP-B

One of the Sr. Review Committee's main arguments supporting its recommendation that NASA not fund the final extension requested by GP-B, was that the goals of GP-B have already been fulfilled by other measurements, and that GP-B is therefore no longer relevant. This view is in stark contrast with the recommendations of the SAC (2007), NASA's Turner panel review of GP-B (2003), and NASA's Fitch-Taylor NRC review of GP-B (1995). All of these reviews concluded that the GP-B experiment is scientifically justified and should be completed.Now, in 2008, the scientific justification for completing the GP-B experiment is even more valid. During the past five years, there has been little progress on other relativity experiments, but GP-B was launched, operated, and collected all of the necessary data. After two years of intense work, the GP-B science team is very close to completing the data analysis. GP-B has made, in the view of the SAC, "extraordinary progress" in addressing two unexpected and difficult complications in analysis caused by unanticipated electrostatic patch effect fields within the gyroscope. (These have been reported previously in our Summer 2007, September 2007 and December 2007 status updates, which you can view in the STATUS tab on our Website: http://einstein.stanford.edu/highlights/hlindexmain.html)

GP-B directly studies gravity, one of the most fundamental laws of nature. Inherently, the goals of GP-B differ significantly from those of typical astrophysics missions, where natural laws--inferred theoretically and tested on the ground--are used to interpret observations of astrophysical phenomena. Furthermore, GP-B objectives and methods are qualitatively different from those underlying most astrophysical work. For this reason, the GP-B experiment begs to be evaluated with respect to criteria based on its direct experimental methodology. Direct tests of nature's laws are the foundation of physical science; such tests are the only rational basis for the belief that these laws are, in part, "understood." GP-B seeks to deepen our understanding of gravity in this way.In addition to its scientific significance, GP-B's technological heritage and operational experience is critically important for future gravity space missions, including tests of the equivalence principle (STEP) and the search for gravitational waves (LISA). NASA stands to loose much of the expertise developed on the GP-B mission if the program is not brought to a proper conclusion.

THE ROAD AHEAD

Our GP-B team has been making steady progress in analyzing the data and working through the unexpected complications discovered within the data. We are now in the home stretch. We have identified the issues that still need to be addressed, and we have prepared a sound plan for completion of the analysis. This plan, which was spelled out in detail in our proposal to the NASA Sr. Review, requires an additional 18-month investment of $3.8M from September 2008 through March 2010. If no further funds are forthcoming from NASA, the analysis efforts will likely cease by October 2008, unless other funding sources can be identified. Since February 2008, GP-B has been funded by contributions from NASA, Stanford University, and a private donor, in approximately equal shares.

We have now clearly confirmed the geodetic effect to a precision of less than 1.5% (97 milli-arcseconds/year). However, because the frame-dragging effect is ~170 times smaller, removing the sources of error from that measurement--especially the non-relativistic torques due to patch effect interactions between the gyro rotors and their housings--is a detailed, painstakingly slow process. We have yet to reach a point of diminishing returns. Until we do, it is our intention to push onward and obtain the best result possible to properly complete this landmark experiment.

We wait to see how accurate they can get their results before the plug is pulled.

However, if it just a matter of $3.8M to complete the analysis up to March 2010 it seems a waste to stop in September this year after spending $800M. :frown:
Anybody got $3.8M to spare?

Garth
 
  • #296
The reason GP-B is a unique experiment that has not been done before is because all other tests of the geodetic precession and gravito-magnetic effect rely on measuring the trajectories of test particles through space-time. They are not directly measuring the precessions of a physical (solid) gyroscope.

A non-metric theory that is conformally equivalent to GR in vacuo (i.e. its Action reduces to GR in vacuo) will generate the same geodesic trajectories for test particles although the Robertson parameters may be different.

This is significant because in terms of the Robertson PPN parameters all other tests of GR have effectively measured \gamma in the expression:

GM(\frac{1+\gamma}{2}),

whereas the geodetic precession is given by the expression:

GM(\frac{1+2\gamma}{3}).

The \gamma is coupled to G differently, so the measurement of the geodetic precession of an actual gyroscope, rather than just the precession of an orbit, is a unique measurement that has only been carried out by GP-B. It would be a crying shame not to complete the processing of the data obtained.

Garth
 
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  • #297
Exactly the point of rigorously crunching GP-B data, Garth!
 
  • #298
I guess the funding panels just didn't believe the data was salvageable and whatever result GP-B would end up claiming would always have a big question mark next to it due to the extra noise. If the funding panel didn't believe the noise could be removed with certainty what would the research community think about the results? I guess they decided not to throw good money after bad.

I have no idea myself about how salvageable the data is, but clearly that was the view of the panel, who I'm sure aren't dodo's. It's a crying shame, but maybe humpty dumpty just can't be put back together again, no matter how much glue we buy.
 
  • #299
Wallace said:
I guess the funding panels just didn't believe the data was salvageable and whatever result GP-B would end up claiming would always have a big question mark next to it due to the extra noise. If the funding panel didn't believe the noise could be removed with certainty what would the research community think about the results? I guess they decided not to throw good money after bad.

I have no idea myself about how salvageable the data is, but clearly that was the view of the panel, who I'm sure aren't dodo's. It's a crying shame, but maybe humpty dumpty just can't be put back together again, no matter how much glue we buy.

The Update actually claims that the drying up of the money is due to a funding crisis and the lack of a fundamental physics research division within NASA:
It is no criticism of the SMD Sr. Review to say that of the ten missions under review, GP-B as a physics experiment rather than an observatory was quite unlike the rest and almost impossible to fit within a common intellectual framework. Regrettably, since NASA has failed to establish a fundamental physics research division, several missions besides GP-B have suffered. If such a division existed, we believe the agency's support for the proper completion of GP-B would continue to be strong.

In my post above I have explained the counter argument to the Sr. Review Committee's main criticism:
the goals of GP-B have already been fulfilled by other measurements, and that GP-B is therefore no longer relevant.
The GP-B team claim that 'Humpty Dumpty' has been almost put back together and a full repair is at hand.
Now, in 2008, the scientific justification for completing the GP-B experiment is even more valid. During the past five years, there has been little progress on other relativity experiments, but GP-B was launched, operated, and collected all of the necessary data. After two years of intense work, the GP-B science team is very close to completing the data analysis. GP-B has made, in the view of the SAC, "extraordinary progress" in addressing two unexpected and difficult complications in analysis caused by unanticipated electrostatic patch effect fields within the gyroscope.

Garth
 
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  • #300
Garth said:
The Update actually claims that the drying up of the money is due to a funding crisis and the lack of a fundamental physics research division within NASA:

I know what the press release said (from both sides), I'm just trying to read between the lines I guess. If the honchos in NASA thought GP-B still had great things to say, they would have found the money somewhere, regardless of structural barriers.

Garth said:
The GP-B team claim that 'Humpty Dumpty' has been almost put back together and a full repair is at hand.

Again, that's what they are saying. But how long have they been saying that to the funding bodies? At some point patience will wear out. I've been telling my supervisor that the paper I'm working on is 'almost done' for a few months now, does that mean it will be ready tomorrow? Probably not. I don't think I've ever seen a grant application say 'we have a lot of work to do and it might not work out after all of that effort anyway', even though that is very often the truth.

Again, I know very little about GP-B, so this could all be irrelevant, my point in as much as I have one is that you can't really learn anything about this from the words in a press release.
 

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