Ampere turn balance (MMF balance) in transformers

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of ampere turn balance and leakage flux in transformers, particularly focusing on the behavior of transformers under no-load and loaded conditions. Participants explore the implications of leakage inductance and the relationship between primary and secondary mmf (magnetomotive force) in various scenarios, including the effects of core permeability.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that during no-load conditions, transformers exhibit perfect coupling, where the voltage ratio equals the turn ratio, while loading introduces leakage flux that affects mmf balance.
  • Others argue that leakage flux represents a voltage drop rather than a loss of current, leading to confusion about its role in transformer operation.
  • A participant questions whether the mmfs of each coil are perfectly balanced when the secondary is short-circuited, proposing that the magnetization current is the only unbalanced component.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of using an ideal core with infinite permeability, with some participants questioning whether leakage inductance would still be measurable in such a scenario.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about whether leakage inductance is observable in no-load conditions, suggesting that it may only manifest under load due to core imperfections.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on several key points, including the nature of leakage flux, its measurement under different core conditions, and the implications of core imperfections on transformer behavior. Multiple competing views remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding related to definitions of leakage flux and inductance, as well as the dependence on core material properties. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainties and assumptions about transformer operation.

  • #31
@jim hardy From what I can tell, the EE's will learn the magnetomotive force concepts for use in transformers as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetomotive_force, often without ever equating it to a form of Ampere's law for magnetic materials as described in post 29. Meanwhile, in the physics curriculum, they teach a whole bunch about Ampere's law, but the application to the mmf equation often is not presented. Even though I am already retired, my first exposure to the mmf equation was here on Physics Forums about a year ago. It was totally omitted from the electricity and magnetism university coursework that I had. With just a little effort, I was able to show that the mmf equation is a form of Ampere's law.
 
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  • #32
I admire and envy your fluency with the equations. I'm a plodder - for me the MMF equation validates Maxwell's .

Yes as you suggest i was taught to sum mmf's just as in KVL we sum EMF's.
I remember Professor writing your simplified MMF equation on the board , i tried it out by working out a couple of simple examples and accepted it. I use it not infrequenty.
Concept of Surface Current was for me just a curious mental trick , necessary for people who use the Maxwell equations so their math will work out. It makes perfect sense though.
If i could measure DC voltage along the surface of a permanent magnet i'd have investigated Maxwell further. (edit i think i actually tried that - i often cross check formulas against observations to refine my meager understanding) Might have an opportunity for further study of Maxwell coming up.

old jim
 
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  • #33
jim hardy said:
View attachment 222192
it was part of an autotransformer based reduced voltage starter
Holy crap; that's a monster. Thanks for the photo.
jim hardy said:
i can't keep up with @dlgoff for creativity though.
I don't know about that. To me, what's important is having the goodies. ... as you have. :oldbiggrin:
Something I just learned, thanks to you, from investigating magnetomotive force(MMF); the Left-hand Rule to Find North Pole of an Electromagnet:
left hand rule.jpg
 

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  • #34
Conventional or electron current ?
Now i got to try it...
 
  • #35
dlgoff said:
Holy crap; that's a monster. Thanks for the photo.

I don't know about that. To me, what's important is having the goodies. ... as you have. :oldbiggrin:
Something I just learned, thanks to you, from investigating magnetomotive force(MMF); the Left-hand Rule to Find North Pole of an Electromagnet:
View attachment 222278
I believe your diagram is incorrect.
 
  • #36
Charles Link said:
I believe your diagram is incorrect.
I was thinking the same, but seeing Jim's #34, it is electron current and not conventional current. So the right hand rule becomes left hand rule.
 
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  • #37
jim hardy said:
Conventional or electron current ?
Now i got to try it...
electron current
Charles Link said:
I believe your diagram is incorrect.
Yes. You're right.
cnh1995 said:
I was thinking the same, but seeing Jim's #34, it is electron current and not conventional current. So the right hand rule becomes left hand rule.
Thanks for that.
 
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