# An ambiguity in the definition of tensors

1. Mar 9, 2012

### Shyan

One of the definitions of the tensors says that they are multidimensional arrays of numbers which transform in a certain form under coordinate transformations.No restriction is considered on the coordinate systems involved.So I thought they should transform as such not only under rotations but also under transformation from cartesian to plane polar coordinates,so I tried it on the contravariant tensor below:
$\left(\begin{array}{cc}-xy&-y^{2}\\x^{2}&xy\end{array}\right)$
But I got zero for all four elements.I got confused then I thought maybe curvilinear coordinates are somehow different from cartesian.Is it correct?If not,what's the reason?
thanks

2. Mar 12, 2012

### quasar987

Maybe you can show us your computations.

3. Mar 12, 2012

### Shyan

$r= \sqrt {x^2+y^2}$
$\theta=tan^{-1}{\frac{y}{x}}$

$\frac {\partial r} {\partial x} = \frac {x}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}}$
$\frac {\partial r} {\partial y} = \frac {y}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}}$
$\frac{\partial \theta}{\partial x}=\frac {-y}{x^2+y^2}$
$\frac{\partial \theta}{\partial y}=\frac {x}{x^2+y^2}$

And then I used the transformation rule below and the partial derivatives above:

$A^{' kl} = \frac {\partial x^{' k}} {\partial x^{i}} \frac {\partial x^{' l}} {\partial x^{j}} A^{ij}$

I calculate one of them here:

$A^{' 11}=( \frac {x}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} )^2 \times (-xy) + \frac {x}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} \times \frac {y}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} \times (-y^2) + \frac {x}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} \times \frac {y}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} \times x^2 + ( \frac {y}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} )^2 \times xy =0$

I did the calculations several times,I'm sure there was nothing wrong with them.

Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
4. Mar 16, 2012

### jimskea

There are different types of tensors. If you're only worried about how your objects transform between cartesian coordinate systems, then you'll define what you mean by a tensor in terms of orthogonal transformations (and you'll get Cartesian tensors). On the other hand, if you're interested in considering how objects transform under general coordinate transformations, you'll define a tensors (or general tensor) by the transformations of the components as you did above.

Now, not all collections of components will be tensors. Maybe the matrix you defined above doesn't represent the components of a general tensor?

5. Mar 16, 2012

### Shyan

Thanks
Now the question is,how can I understand that?

6. Mar 17, 2012

### genericusrnme

How do you mean understand?

Tensors are defined as things that transform like $T_{a,b}=\frac{ \partial x^n}{\partial x^a}\frac{ \partial x^m}{\partial x^b}T'_{n,m}$ or the other way if it's mixed or contravariant. If it doesn't transform like this then it isn't a tensor.
There's nothing to really 'understand' about it, it's just a definition, things that don't transform like tensors aren't tensors!

7. Mar 17, 2012

### Shyan

Ok.That's right.
But the matrix I've given in my first posts,transforms as a contravariant tensor under rotations but gives zero under transformation from cartesian to polar coordinates.
That's what I wanna know the reason.

8. Mar 17, 2012

### Alesak

I went through your calculation as well, your transformation rule seems correct...

Maybe the problem is that your coordinate matrix has determinant 0, but I don't see why it's wrong.

9. Mar 17, 2012

### Shyan

What you mean by coordinate matrix?
I just know one matrix relating this and that's the Jacobian which does not have zero determinant here.
I think if we analyze another tensor which works well here,we can find the wrong thing.

10. Mar 17, 2012

### Alesak

Well, $\left(\begin{array}{cc}-xy&-y^{2}\\x^{2}&xy\end{array}\right)$ has determinant zero. It probably doens't play any role here, but I´m not an expert.

If we took $\left(\begin{array}{cc}x&y\\y&x\end{array}\right)$, it would be

$A^{' 11}=( \frac {x}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} )^2 \times x + \frac {x}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} \times \frac {y}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} \times y + \frac {x}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} \times \frac {y}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} \times y + ( \frac {y}{\sqrt {x^2+y^2}} )^2 \times x$

which obviously is not zero. So it seems to be as unfortunate choice of tensor and coordinate system. But still, it is wierd. If we tried coordinate transformation to polar coordinates and back to cartesian, result would be zero. Which is wrong.

11. Mar 17, 2012

### HallsofIvy

Staff Emeritus
You have yet to give any reason why you think that is a tensor!

12. Mar 18, 2012

### Shyan

Very good point HallsofIvy.
Just the professor at university told that it is a tensor and has done the transformation for rotations and it proved to be a tensor under rotations.
Maybe its not a tensor because it does not work well under this kind of transformation.
So very unfortunate choice.