An Exceptionally Technical Discussion of AESToE

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  • #151
Tony Smith said:
If you are going to build models based on E8 (or any other exceptional Lie group/algebra), you are effectively using octonions whether you explicitly acknowledge it or not.
For example, the basic structure E8 / Spin(16) = 128-dim half-spinor of Spin(16)
is the symmetric space (OxO)P2
which is the projective plane of the tensor product of two copies of the octonions,
which symmetric space is described by Boris Rosenfeld in his book "Geometry of Lie Groups" (Kluwer 1997).
Hi Tony,
I'm glad to see you have this attitude about things, but what you write above actually
is what makes my point. By working with these exceptional groups we're picking
all the symmetry/structure of octanions without having to deal with them!
Lie algebras are much easier to work with and their knowledge database is
much bigger. I can't imagine doing calculations in (OxO)P2 for example being
easy at all, whereas I can get everything I need to get about any rep of e8.
 
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  • #152
rntsai said "... we're picking all the symmetry/structure of octanions without having to deal with them! Lie algebras are much easier to work with ...".

You should always use whatever approach you are more comfortable with,
as long as you realize that the 240 root vectors of E8 are 240 units that close under an octonion multiplication, so that octonions are really there anyway,
and
that when you go from local Lie algebra to global Lie group structure you inevitably encounter things like (OxO)P2.

However, the goal of model building is to do physics,
so if you can make a physics model that let's you calculate particle masses and force strengths etc by using a more limited set of math-structure-tools then that is a good thing and should be worked out and written up.

Tony Smith
 
  • #153
Hi
I am somewhat embarrassed to mention this here, since it is probably just a trivial result. However, I believe I have discovered and can demonstrate that there are 240 possible two dimensional projections of a cube undergoing rotations. These projections are all unique and do not include any trivial rotations in the plane of observation.

Probably this result is well-known, and it is only coincidence that E8 has 240 roots. But if my result is correct, then would it not be a simplification to talk about rotations of a three dimensional cube rather than a seemingly more complicated E8 object?
 
  • #154
starkind said:
Hi
I am somewhat embarrassed to mention this here, since it is probably just a trivial result. However, I believe I have discovered and can demonstrate that there are 240 possible two dimensional projections of a cube undergoing rotations. These projections are all unique and do not include any trivial rotations in the plane of observation.

Probably this result is well-known, and it is only coincidence that E8 has 240 roots. But if my result is correct, then would it not be a simplification to talk about rotations of a three dimensional cube rather than a seemingly more complicated E8 object?
No need to be embarrassed, you never know where a good idea can come from so it's
always to keep an open mind about things. There must be some equivalence imposed
on these projections; it seems to me there are infinitely many : take a cube rotate
by any degree and project; if there is a "natural" way to define these equivalence
classes, how do you "add" and "multiply" them? it might end up that these are
actually harder to work with than lie algebras in spite of their definition
 
  • #155
“There must be some equivalence imposed
on these projections; it seems to me there are infinitely many : take a cube rotate
by any degree and project; if there is a "natural" way to define these equivalence
classes, how do you "add" and "multiply" them? it might end up that these are
actually harder to work with than lie algebras in spite of their definition.”

Exactly so. I have been trying to follow the ongoing discussion in this thread and have to admit I am not up to speed on the terms. I have been studying and have some ideas about how it all fits together, but am far from fluent. So I have to use language that I do understand, in a more general way.

For example, there are some obvious choices for placement of axis of rotation. First, all rotation axies to be considered are through the center point, or origin of the cube. Then, there are pairs of points on the surface of the cube which are defined by the shape of the cube.

I looked at three equivalence classes of polar pairs defined on the surface. First, there are opposite vertices. Eight of them, the corners of the cube, and so four axis choices. Then there are the faces of the cube, six of them, each with a center point. Using opposite center points as poles gives three more axis lines, the usual three dimensional orthogonal basis. Then there are the edges, each with a center point to use as a pole with the opposite pole being on the parallel edge. There are twelve edges and so six axis lines in this equivalence class.

So, three face centered axies, four vertex centered axies, and six edge centered axies.

Now observe the cube from some fixed point at a sufficient distance in the equatorial plane. The cube presents the observer with a visible surface, which is one of its projections onto the two dimensional plane. Rotation of the cube about an axis produces a sequence of symmetrical views. For example, a face centered axis has four symmetrical projections in which it presents a single face, and four in which it presents two faces. If the faces are labeled A,B,C,D, then the rotation sequence presents the following series: A, AB, B, BC, C, CD, D, DA, and repeat. Three axies, eight projections each, twenty four possible projections.

The vertex centered axies when rotated produce four symmetry groups with three members each. The projection sequence alternates between two visible faces and three visible faces. So there are twelve possible projections per axis, and four axies, so forty-eight possible projections.

The edge centered axies have a sequence of eight elements each, showing one, two, or three faces. The sequence is one face, three faces, two faces, three faces, one face, three faces, two faces, three faces, and so on. So six axies, eight projections each, is forty-eight possible projections.

I have listed one hundred and twenty unique projections. Now if we consider the two possible directions of rotation, we have two hundred and forty unique projections.

I suspect that all of this floral verbiage can be stated simply and clearly using a few lines of Lie algebra, but I don’t know how to do that.

So that’s the bones. Still have to think about how they might fit together.

S.
 
  • #156
Octonions

Objections to the use of the octonions in physics because they are
not associative closes off the objector to a very useful perspective.
Although I don't deeply follow contemporary approaches to unification
and TOEs, every approach I have some awareness of can be linked
to the octonions and other division algebras. That is not to say that
the octonions are necessarily required in the development of any given
theory, but that they are an example of resonant mathematics, and
the mathematical underpinnings of viable physical theories tend to
accrete around the mathematically resonant. Consider the space-time
dimensions 4, 10 and 26, which have played such a great part in
string theories. The three corresponding transverse dimensions
are 2, 8 and 24. These are also the only known dimensions n for which
the n-dimensional laminated lattices (A2, E8, Λ24) simultaneously provide
the tightest sphere packings, give the best kissing numbers, and the
kissing spheres lock into place. These dimensions are mathematically
resonant. (They are also linked to the complex numbers, quaternions
and octonions.)

It is important to understand that the suggestion here is that any theory,
even if shown ultimately to be very wrong, will find its best results
cropping up when its mathematics align with such resonances, and
that a fair amount of time can be saved by accepting this notion from
the outset.

As to the octonions specifically, they are much more than just a
nonassociative algebra. As Conway and Sloane in their marvelous
"Sphere Packings" book point out, and as I and others have pointed out,
the octonions are a spinor space. They are intimately linked to Spin(8),
triality, Bott periodicity, all the exceptional Lie groups, space-times
of dimensions 10, 18, 26, ..., SU(3), and on and on. It is not possible
to produce a useful theory without the hint of octonionic influence, and
doubtful that one could be constructed that would not benefit in added
insight by recouching its amenable parts using the octonions.
 
  • #157
starkind said:
“There must be some equivalence imposed
on these projections; it seems to me there are infinitely many : take a cube rotate
by any degree and project; if there is a "natural" way to define these equivalence
classes, how do you "add" and "multiply" them? it might end up that these are
actually harder to work with than lie algebras in spite of their definition.”

Exactly so. I have been trying to follow the ongoing discussion in this thread and have to admit I am not up to speed on the terms. I have been studying and have some ideas about how it all fits together, but am far from fluent. So I have to use language that I do understand, in a more general way.

For example, there are some obvious choices for placement of axis of rotation. First, all rotation axies to be considered are through the center point, or origin of the cube. Then, there are pairs of points on the surface of the cube which are defined by the shape of the cube.

I looked at three equivalence classes of polar pairs defined on the surface. First, there are opposite vertices. Eight of them, the corners of the cube, and so four axis choices. Then there are the faces of the cube, six of them, each with a center point. Using opposite center points as poles gives three more axis lines, the usual three dimensional orthogonal basis. Then there are the edges, each with a center point to use as a pole with the opposite pole being on the parallel edge. There are twelve edges and so six axis lines in this equivalence class.

So, three face centered axies, four vertex centered axies, and six edge centered axies.

Now observe the cube from some fixed point at a sufficient distance in the equatorial plane. The cube presents the observer with a visible surface, which is one of its projections onto the two dimensional plane. Rotation of the cube about an axis produces a sequence of symmetrical views. For example, a face centered axis has four symmetrical projections in which it presents a single face, and four in which it presents two faces. If the faces are labeled A,B,C,D, then the rotation sequence presents the following series: A, AB, B, BC, C, CD, D, DA, and repeat. Three axies, eight projections each, twenty four possible projections.

The vertex centered axies when rotated produce four symmetry groups with three members each. The projection sequence alternates between two visible faces and three visible faces. So there are twelve possible projections per axis, and four axies, so forty-eight possible projections.

The edge centered axies have a sequence of eight elements each, showing one, two, or three faces. The sequence is one face, three faces, two faces, three faces, one face, three faces, two faces, three faces, and so on. So six axies, eight projections each, is forty-eight possible projections.

I have listed one hundred and twenty unique projections. Now if we consider the two possible directions of rotation, we have two hundred and forty unique projections.

I suspect that all of this floral verbiage can be stated simply and clearly using a few lines of Lie algebra, but I don’t know how to do that.

So that’s the bones. Still have to think about how they might fit together.

S.

I have been working on something similar; although not with cubes. Right now it explains proton to eletron mass ratio, and it gives very stong indications of "why" we will never have more than 3 generations of matter in any form and predicts the fine structure constant. Please message me I would like to talk further about how you are developing your model. Right now I'm trying to map Lisi's work on to my own, and see if they generally agree.
 
  • #158
gdixon said:
Objections to the use of the octonions in physics because they are
not associative closes off the objector to a very useful perspective.
Although I don't deeply follow contemporary approaches to unification
and TOEs, every approach I have some awareness of can be linked
to the octonions and other division algebras. That is not to say that
the octonions are necessarily required in the development of any given
theory, but that they are an example of resonant mathematics, and
the mathematical underpinnings of viable physical theories tend to
accrete around the mathematically resonant. Consider the space-time
dimensions 4, 10 and 26, which have played such a great part in
string theories. The three corresponding transverse dimensions
are 2, 8 and 24. These are also the only known dimensions n for which
the n-dimensional laminated lattices (A2, E8, Λ24) simultaneously provide
the tightest sphere packings, give the best kissing numbers, and the
kissing spheres lock into place. These dimensions are mathematically
resonant. (They are also linked to the complex numbers, quaternions
and octonions.)

It is important to understand that the suggestion here is that any theory,
even if shown ultimately to be very wrong, will find its best results
cropping up when its mathematics align with such resonances, and
that a fair amount of time can be saved by accepting this notion from
the outset.

As to the octonions specifically, they are much more than just a
nonassociative algebra. As Conway and Sloane in their marvelous
"Sphere Packings" book point out, and as I and others have pointed out,
the octonions are a spinor space. They are intimately linked to Spin(8),
triality, Bott periodicity, all the exceptional Lie groups, space-times
of dimensions 10, 18, 26, ..., SU(3), and on and on. It is not possible
to produce a useful theory without the hint of octonionic influence, and
doubtful that one could be constructed that would not benefit in added
insight by recouching its amenable parts using the octonions.

This will require me some study.
 
  • #159
sooperdooper said:
...it explains proton to eletron mass ratio, and it gives very stong indications of "why" we will never have more than 3 generations of matter in any form and predicts the fine structure constant.

This will be very powerful stuff, then.

I was going to append the thought of a cubic lattice collapsing into a dense packed sphere lattice as a model for directional time in an infall universe. But I have a lot of other stuff to think about right now.

index 14962
 
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  • #160
gdixon

You wrote:
“the mathematical underpinnings of viable physical theories tend to
accrete around the mathematically resonant.”

This is beautiful use of language, but I am not sure it can be evaluated for validity. ‘Resonant’ is a fine word, and I know what it means in general use, but have been unable to find a special meaning for it in mathematics. If it has no special meaning, then the quoted sentence, lovely as it is, probably reduces logically to something like “Good theories use good math.” Of course I cannot disagree with such a statement without descending into semantics.

Nevertheless, I have given some hours to this reply, partly because the quoted statement rolls around the tongue like colorful flavored marbles, as opposed to clunking on my teeth like dusty rocks. Thanks!

I spent quite a bit of Wiki time with the rest of it too, and got the feeling you know what you are saying. I should like to ask, if you are feeling generous, about the “n-dimensional laminated lattices (A2, E8, Λ24).” I didn’t find any results for the use of ‘laminated’ with the idea of lattices, but I think it means that the lattice structure can be sliced up into layers of similar structure. Also, I danced around with the last term in parenthesis, not sure what the letter before the number 24 should be. Is it lambda? What does it mean, in the sense that E in E8 means exceptional?

The idea of transverse dimensions gave me more stuff to gnaw at. I think I get it that the four dimensional space-time in which we are comfortable can be sliced up into two dimensional planes on which we can show state space, phase space, Hilbert space, and such. Wiki has a page on transversality which I find tantalizing. Pity poor Tantalus.

I was delighted to find the comment “These are also the only known dimensions n for which the n-dimensional laminated lattices (A2, E8, Λ24) simultaneously provide
the tightest sphere packings, give the best kissing numbers, and the
kissing spheres lock into place.” I like packing spheres and understand that the kissing numbers refer to the places where packed spheres touch each other. That would be twelve places on the surface of each sphere internal to a dense packing of like-sized three dimensional spheres.

I like the dense packing of like-sized three dimensional spheres for its simplicity and because there is only one likely axis on which to perform rotations. Or rather, there are six such axies, but they are indistinguishable one from another unless an observer chooses to count and label them. And it is cool that there are only two facial symmetries, one being the triangle and the other, the square.

About that idea of the kissing spheres locking into place: I wonder if it would be useful to think of time as excluded from such regions?

Thanks for a good read.

S.
15197
 
  • #161
A resonance in experimental physics is where the signal jumps
above the noise indicating the presence of something interesting.
A resonance in mathematics is a dimension, for example,
at which many complex notions become suddenly simple,
and this simplicity leads to enormous richness (1,2,4,8,24,
in particular). Little of what is accounted "good mathematics"
is resonant, and in the worst case it is intellectual onanism.
A2 = Λ2, E8 = Λ8, Λ24 = the Leech lattice, and Λ = Lambda,
in lattice theory indicating laminated, a technical term. Buy
Conway and Sloane's Sphere Packing book, just for the fun of it.

Two dimensions are required for motion: one space; one time.
Everything else is transverse, at least in the context of Lorentz
spaces.

One can not argue that some mathematics/dimensions are
richer (more resonant in my terminology) than others.
The division algebras, parallelizable spheres, all the classical
Lie groups, arise out of the special nature of dimensions 1,2,4,8.
Assuming that richness of that sort (and beyond) is required
of the mathematical underpinning of our (or any) physical reality
is my opinion. I don't do much research anymore, but all of
what I have done has been informed by this perspective - and
all of what I am doing now, and shall ever do.

Cheers, signing off now.
 
  • #163
I am thankful for the reference and links. Conway and Sloane's Sphere Packing book will be on my list, even though it is expensive for us fixed income types. On the same topic, I read George Szpiro's book some years ago, Kepler's Conjecture, on the topic of sphere packings, and found it inspirational. It has the advantage of being accessible to ordinary readers, both in price and language, for those who are not interested in the exceptionally technical.

Gdixon wrote:

"The division algebras, parallelizable spheres, all the classical
Lie groups, arise out of the special nature of dimensions 1,2,4,8.
Assuming that richness of that sort (and beyond) is required
of the mathematical underpinning of our (or any) physical reality
is my opinion. I don't do much research anymore, but all of
what I have done has been informed by this perspective - and
all of what I am doing now, and shall ever do."

I was astonished at the certainty, as well as the finality, expressed in this statement. After many readings, I began to insert a catch of the breath before "is my opinion." Do I detect an edit? Was there a tentative thought covered by the catch phrase? What does one conclude, assuming that richness?

I welcome Geoffrey Dixon to PF, altho I myself have no official standing here. The link to Dr. Dixon's home page gives me lots to think about. Thanks!

15458
 
  • #164
Unless I’m mistaken, we may have gone somewhat off-course from what Garrett originally intended for AESToE.

Which isn’t to say that I’ll necessarily steer things back in some suitable direction, but I’ve been off doing a bunch of stuff and want to return and ask some questions.

There are some very good other threads here on physicsforums (that relate). For one ‘DeSitter group SO(4,1) intro’ much of which is Garrett discussing deSitter space and other matters with no less than John Baez. John’s writing style is very different than Garrett’s. In post #10 in the above topic John has a very intuitive, geometric way of working our way ‘upwards’ (in dimensionality) to deSitter space. One neat trick is to get is a cartan connection via one tangent sphere rolling along a bumpy second tangent sphere from one point on the second sphere to another (John explains it much better). Very interesting. For one, as sphere A rolls, because B is bumpy, A twists a bit here-and-there which is a manifestation of basic SO(3,1) (rotation group of course rntsai – I will henceforth pay more attention to the lower-case algebra vs. upper-case group notation).

And actually some part of the early discussion between JB and Garrett is groups vs. algebras – respectively. So this goes back-and-forth until John kind of throws up his hands saying you need both simultaneously. And then ups the ante by saying that’s really not the right way of looking at things at all.

Also within ‘DeSitter group SO(4,1) intro’ there’s a pointer off to another topic that Garrett started called ‘Lie group geometry, Clifford algebra, symmetric spaces, Kaluza-Klein, and all that’. With some really gnarly looking math in it if you’re so inclined.

In Garrett’s first post he says:

The best way to understand the DeSitter group, SO(4,1), is to first understand the DeSitter algebra, so(4,1). This is the algebra of rotations for a five dimensional space with signature (4,1) -- that's four directions with positive norm and one direction with negative norm. (The same way Minkowski space has signature (1,3) or (3,1).) The DeSitter algebra has 10 generators which have commutation relations (structure coefficients) between them under the antisymmetric product (bracket).

Just prior to that marcus expresses deSitter space as w2 + x2 + y2 + z2 - t2.

So my first really dumb question. I still don’t properly understand the group notation (or signature as I think Garrett calls it). In SO(4,1) the 4 refers to dimensions with a positive norm – the 1 to a single dimension with a negative norm.

One can only assume that the 4 are spatial dimensions and the 5th, t, is time. So how come t = time has a negative norm? (something to do perhaps with the fact that t travels in only one direction [at anything larger than the Planck scale]).

I'm eventually making my way back here to so(3,1) gravity. So this is 3 spatial dimensions (w positive norm) and a single time dimension, as above with a negative norm? Obviously I'm scratching my head over the negative norm stuff (and that's presuming that t = time).

rntsai: ran your GAP program. Pretty straightforward really. And of course one doesn’t need a debugger or anything (thinking too much like that programmer I am). After executing a given statement (when running step-by-step), you simply display the resulting object to the screen and have some sort of algebraic structure to then decipher. And I’m making progress with these.

The more I play with it the more I like the GAP software (for doing this kind of math) and there are, in general, excellent resources at http://www.gap-software.com.

<STRIKE>I’m trying to keep my posts shorter (I may not succeed)</STRIKE>. (is physicsforums back at something like HTML 2.0?) I’ve heard of sphere packing (and its wonders) of course, but if there’s a single parallel line of study I’ll take, it’s that pointed to by Tony Smith and Geoffrey Dixon gdixon. The resonance of the octonions. I take it on faith that a great deal of what’s expressed here in Lie algebras and groups can be done with octonions. rntsai questions the utility of that – but that’s another matter.

I was intrigued with this expression (from Tony) upthread:

T = CxQxO

I would have normally thought that C was \mathbb{C} – the complex numbers. Q is \mathbb{Q} or the rationals and O - well – maybe the octonions or \mathbb{O}. 1 and 3 are right, but the middle term is actually the quaternions.

Which is explained here:

http://www.7stones.com/Homepage/su3.html

as

which is just the complexification of the quaternionization of the octonions.

! So what is that? You seem to be shoe-horning 8 dimensions first into 4 and then into 2. (here I make not a dumb question, but rather a stupid statement).

One last item. If the first part of a Wikipedia entry baffles the reader, see if it has an Examples section. The initial description of a Cartan subalgebra is not immediately penetrable.

However example #2 says:

A Cartan subalgebra of the Lie algebra of n×n matrices over a field is the algebra of all diagonal matrices.

Ah – that’s much better. Well our simple Lie algebras do consist of sq matrices (populated by quantum numbers). And a diagonal matrix simply serves ‘disentangle’ the various components of the linear transformation. Or more technically (I believe) orthogonalize them.

pat
 
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  • #165
patfla mentions the ambiguity in mathematics notation of the lettter "Q".
It is used for the rational numbers, and also for the Quaternions.
However,
some people use the letter "H" (the "H" coming from "Hamilton") for the Quaternions to avoid that ambiguity,
and
others (including me) often use "Q" for the Quaternions hoping that context will make clear what is meant.

Also, some people don't like to use "O" for Octonions ( because "O" is also used for "orthogonal" as in the orthogonal group O(p,q) ) and so instead they use "Ca" (the "Ca" coming from Cayley).

patfla also says "... In SO(4,1) the 4 refers to dimensions with a positive norm – the 1 to a single dimension with a negative norm.
One can only assume that the 4 are spatial dimensions and the 5th, t, is time. So how come t = time has a negative norm? ...".

SO(p,q) and Clifford algebra Cl(p,q) notations are also not unanimously followed in the math community. Some people use (p,q) to denote signature with p + dimensions and q - dimensions, and some use it the other way around. Since both notations are found not only in papers but also in textbooks, you need to figure out which convention is used in whatever you are reading.

As to whether SO(3,1) or SO(1,3) should represent transformations of physical spacetime, you can look at the Clifford algebras Cl(3,1) or Cl(1,3) from whence they come (their Lie algebras are the bivector parts of those Clifford algebras, using the Lie bracket product).
Here I will use +++- and ---+ to be clear instead of (p,q) type notation.
(see for example F. Reese Harvey's book "Spinors and Calibrations" (Academic 1990))
Cl(+++-) = M(2,Q) = 2x2 matrices of Quaternions
Cl(---+) = M(4,R) = 4x4 matrices of Real numbers

So, the question of +++_ versus ---+ signature of physical spacetime becomes: do you want Quaternionic or Real structure?
John Baez has a web page about that question at
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/symplectic.html
Here are a few quotes from that web page:
"... spin-1/2 particles in nonrelativistic quantum mechanics are naturally quaternionic if we take time reversal into account! ...
[quoting Toby Bartels] "... we want an operator T: H -> H
...[where]... H ... is a 2-dimensional complex vector space ... the Hilbert space of a non-relativistic spin-1/2 particle ...
to describe the effect of time reversal on our spin-1/2 particle ...
an antiunitary operator with these properties does exist, and is unique up to phase.
It satisfies T2 = -1
Now what have we got? A quaternionic structure on H.
[in terms of Quaternion basis elements {1,i,j,k}] T = j.
... so H becomes a 1-dimensional quaternionic Hilbert space!
... So: spin-1/2 particles in nonrelativistic quantum mechanics are naturally quaternionic if we take time reversal into account!
... f the spin is an integer, T2 = 1 is a real structure, making the Hilbert space the complexification of a real Hilbert space. ..." [end of quote of Toby Bartels]

Even better, it turns out that the same stuff applies to representations of the Poincare group: the reps corresponding to fermions are quaternionic, while the reps corresponding to bosons are real - and the operator j turns out to be nothing other than the CPT operator! ...".

See also John Baez's week156 at
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week156.html
where he says in a footnote "... Squark found in Volume 1 of Weinberg's "Quantum Field Theory" that the CPT operator on the Hilbert space of a spin-j representation of the Poincare group is an antiunitary operator with (CPT)^2 = -1^2 j. So indeed we do have (CPT)^2 = 1 in the bosonic case, making these representations real, and (CPT)^2 = -1 in the fermionic case, making these representations quaternionic. ...".

Note that all the above is consistent with the general approaches of
Geoffrey Dixon (T = CxQxO acting as a spinor space, with fermionic Quaternions acting like spinors, and generalizing the above to include Octonions)
and
Garrett Lisi using
248-dim E8 = 120-dim bosonic adjoint SO(16) + 128-dim fermionic half-spinor SO(16)
where, on the Lie Group level,
E8 / SO(16) = 128-dim fermionic half-spinor SO(16) = (OxO)P2 = the octo-octonionic projective plane known as Rosenfeld's elliptic projective plane. Rosenfeld is at Penn State and has a web page at
http://www.math.psu.edu/katok_s/BR/init.html

patfla also quotes Geoffrey Dixon as describing T = CxQxO as "... the complexification of the quaternionization of the octonions ..."
and then asks:
"... So what is that?
You seem to be shoe-horning 8 dimensions first into 4 and then into 2 ...".

It is not so much shoe-horning O into Q into C as it is
starting with 8-dim O
then expanding to QxO by letting each element of O be 4-dim Q to go to 4x8 = 32-dim
and
finally expanding again to CxQxO by letting each element of QxO be 2-dim complex to go to 2x32 = 64-dim.

Geoffrey Dixon then (as described in his book) uses two copies of T = CxQxO as his basic 64+645 = 128-dim spinor space
which seems to correspond to Garrett Lisi's E8 / SO(16) = (OxO)P2 = 128-dim spinor-type fermion space.

What makes me think that E8 physics is realistic and probably true is that so many different points of view (octonion, Clifford algebra, Lie algebra, symmetric space geometry, ...) all seem to fit with it consistently and to describe what we observe in the physics of gravity and the standard model.

Tony Smith

PS - I should also note the ambiguity of notation using T for time and T for CxQxO.
All in all, I think that you have to pay close attention to context when reading math/physics literature.
 
  • #166
Thanx Tony

t is not so much shoe-horning O into Q into C as it is
starting with 8-dim O
then expanding to QxO by letting each element of O be 4-dim Q to go to 4x8 = 32-dim
and
finally expanding again to CxQxO by letting each element of QxO be 2-dim complex to go to 2x32 = 64-dim.

Aaahhh. Actually if I’d thought a minute or two about what the tensor product does, I probably should have been able to arrive at the correct interpretation.

I think I was distracted by this:

the complexification of the quaternionization of the octonions

I’m good at languages; speak several; and there was a way in which I thought this was really quite funny (which is not to diminish its truth/usefulness/whatever).

And as for context, your first problem in Japanese is that the word order is completely inverted (from English). The main verb arrives only at the very end. However I feel the real problem is that Japanese contains a huge (by English standards) of homonyms. How to disambiguate them?
 
  • #167
patfla said:
The more I play with it the more I like the GAP software (for doing this kind of math) and there are, in general, excellent resources at http://www.gap-software.com.
I think you meant to include another link (the above has nothing to do with GAP :
Groups Alogorithms and Programming). Here's a link for that :

http://www-gap.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/.

Some (final?) words on where I got in the calculations :
I tried duplicating what's in the paper, but I think I hit a wall.
I'll leave here the furthest I got in case someone will find it
useful and maybe unclock the next step :

This is a table of decomposing f4 under its subalgebras d4>a3>a2.
Each subalgebra breaks up subspaces into finer and finer components,...

The columns are :

(1) dimension of d4 rep
(2) dimension of a3 rep
(3) dimension of a2 rep
(4) eigenvalue of cartan generator #1 of d4
(5) eigenvalue of cartan generator #2 of d4
(6) eigenvalue of cartan generator #3 of d4
(7) eigenvalue of cartan generator #4 of d4
(8) eigenvalue of centralizer of a3 in d4
(9) eigenvalue of centralizer of a2 in a3

the last two look very close to physically meaningful values. The
problem is that there are a lot of 3 dimensional subspaces here.
Only 4 of the last 6 are independant; it's possible to get linear
combinations that give all sorts of patterns, but that seems like
an excercise in numerology. I couldn't find any "natural" way to associate
these with the quark/leptons... of the three generations... and I couldn't
find in the paper how that association is done.

Anyway, I'll leave this here (attachement); hopefully the above is descriptive
enough : f4 = d4 + 8V + 8S+ + 8S-
 

Attachments

  • #168
Hi rntsai - yes you're right. Not the .com site.

I did get the software originally from the .uk site you mention.

Later though I found this (and this is what I should have put up instead of the .com url):

http://www.gap-system.org/

Lots of interesting looking, and possibly useful stuff.

So much time, so little to do.

pat
 
  • #169
rntsai said:
...it's possible to get linear combinations that give all sorts of patterns, but that seems like an excercise in numerology. I couldn't find any "natural" way to associate these with the quark/leptons... of the three generations... and I couldn't
find in the paper how that association is done.

Anyway, I'll leave this here (attachement); hopefully the above is descriptive
enough : f4 = d4 + 8V + 8S+ + 8S-

Conventional string theory (and Tony's unconventional string theory) use 8S+ and 8S- for one generation of fermions/antifermions. Does this seem more natural to you? Garrett I think goes up to E6 to get antifermions while conventionally E6 gets you complex fermions. I personally think this is the one area where Garrett might have to become more conventional but even with Garrett's model, any particular group of 8 multiplet should break up into quarks and leptons in a conventional way.
 
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  • #170
John G said:
Conventional string theory (and Tony's unconventional string theory) use 8S+ and 8S- for one generation of fermions/antifermions. Does this seem more natural to you?

I guess "natural" is subject to taste; mine would be if the assignment gives
the correct quantum numbers using elements that are more "distinguished";
this is why I use centralizers for example. I'll actually be happy to see how
the assignment is done (natural or otherwise). Did anyone confirm the
quantum numbers for any of the generations?

John G said:
any particular group of 8 multiplet should break up into quarks and leptons in a conventional way.

Why would this be true? I assume here by 8 multiplet you mean "d4" 8 multiplet.
This is to distinguish from "a2" 8 multiplets like the one inside d4 (first 8 rows of the table
attached before) ; I think this 8 can be associated with gluons.
 
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  • #171
rntsai asked, about "... us[ing] 8S+ and 8S- for one generation of fermions/antifermions ...",
"... Did anyone confirm the quantum numbers for any of the generations? ...".

Yes. For the first generation, this assignment, based on representing 8S+ by an octonion basis,

Octonion Particle

1 e-neutrino

i red up quark
j green up quark
k blue up quark

e electron

ie red down quark
je green down quark
ke blue down quark

gives color and electric charges consistent with reality, as does the corresponding assignment for 8S- and antiparticles.

It gives only left-handed particles and right-handed antiparticles,
so that the opposite handedness arises dynamically due to special relativity transformations that can switch handedness of particles that travel at less than light-speed (i.e., that have more than zero rest mass) as described by L. B. Okun in his book Leptons and Quarks (North-Holland (2nd printing 1984) page 11) where he said:

"... a particle with spin in the direction opposite to that of its momentum ...[is]... said to possesses left-handed helicity, or left-handed polarization.
A particle is said to possesses right-handed helicity, or polarization, if its spin is directed along its momentum.
The concept of helicity is not Lorentz invariant if the particle mass is non-zero. The helicity of such a particle depends oupon the motion of the observer's frame of reference. For example, it will change sign if we try to catch up with the particle at a speed above its velocity. Overtaking a particle is the more difficult, the higher its velocity, so that helicity becomes a better quantum number as velocity increases.
It is an exact quantum number for massless particles ...
The above space-time structure ... means ... that at ...[ v -> speed of light ]... particles
have only left-handed helicity, and antparticles only right-handed helicity. ...".

Tony Smith
 
  • #172
Tony Smith said:
rntsai asked, about "... us[ing] 8S+ and 8S- for one generation of fermions/antifermions ...",
"... Did anyone confirm the quantum numbers for any of the generations? ...".

Yes. For the first generation, this assignment, based on representing 8S+ by an octonion basis,

Octonion Particle

1 e-neutrino

i red up quark
j green up quark
k blue up quark

e electron

ie red down quark
je green down quark
ke blue down quark

gives color and electric charges consistent with reality, as does the corresponding assignment for 8S- and antiparticles.

It gives only left-handed particles and right-handed antiparticles,

How does it do that? What about weak spin and hypercharge?
Does this show e_L with weak hypercharge=-1 and e_R with -2?
 
  • #173
Tony Smith said:
The concept of helicity is not Lorentz invariant if the particle mass is non-zero. The helicity of such a particle depends oupon the motion of the observer's frame of reference.

Speaking of Lorentz, if you look in the table again, d4 breaks up as
15+6+6+1 under a3. The table also shows how the 15 breaks down
further under a2 as 8+3+3+1. Now a3 also has a d2 subalgebra, under
that the 15 breaks down as 3+3+4+4+1; the 3+3 is d2 itself (rotations/
boosts), the 4 is translation, the other 4 works out to special
conformal operations; the 1 is scaling or dilation. It's easy to verify that the
4's are commutative, and that they're the +1 and -1 eigenspaces of
dilation...just an interseting way the poincare algebra shows up in the
middle of all this!
 
  • #174
It's long been believed that the photon has no position operator. Margaret Hawton found a position operator some years ago but the issue is still debated. My favorite paper on this is:
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0408017

Where this may tie in with the E8 discussion is in the method used to prove that the photon can have no position operator. It required the assumption that a position operator would look like the position operator of Schroedinger's wave equation, that is, be a simple vector. The problem arises in the assumption that one can write a photon wave function as having a specific value of spin with respect to a direction, usually taken to be z.

This assumption is a little incompatible with the fact that massless spin 1 particles take only two spin states. The result is that one misses a degree of freedom. What Hawton (and Baylis I suppose) did was to recognize that the incompatibility could be lifted if one always took spin in the direction of momentum. That is, instead of breaking the spin 1 state up using spin in the z direction, they used helicity. But that meant that the position operator needed to be a matrix; the matrix rotates the wave function to be in the +z direction.

The end result of this is that the photon wave function is most naturally written split into its left and right handed parts. This mirrors the standard model splitting of electrons into handed parts.

The usual way of doing QFT requires that one keep the left and right handed halves together and treat them as a couple. What Garrett has done is illegal mostly in that he has split right from left and treated them independently. This seems to me to have a certain resonance with what Hawton did.

Of course, being a fanatic, I think that there is a relationship between Hawton's stuff and density matrices and the consistent histories interpretation of quantum mechanics. I wrote up the details over at my blog:
http://carlbrannen.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/consistent-histories-and-density-operator-formalism/
 
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  • #175
rntsai said:
Speaking of Lorentz, if you look in the table again, d4 breaks up as 15+6+6+1 under a3. The table also shows how the 15 breaks down
further under a2 as 8+3+3+1. Now a3 also has a d2 subalgebra, under
that the 15 breaks down as 3+3+4+4+1; the 3+3 is d2 itself (rotations/
boosts), the 4 is translation, the other 4 works out to special
conformal operations; the 1 is scaling or dilation. It's easy to verify that the
4's are commutative, and that they're the +1 and -1 eigenspaces of
dilation...just an interseting way the poincare algebra shows up in the
middle of all this!

Wow, you've just pretty much described Tony's bosons. It's interesting to think what those special conformal operations (and Cartan subalgebra 1s) can do.

How does it do that? What about weak spin and hypercharge?
Does this show e_L with weak hypercharge=-1 and e_R with -2?

This is over my head but maybe this from Tony's website can help with weak spin and hypercharge until Tony returns:
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/su3su2u1.html

The electroweak/color charges come from the three bit structure of the octonion.

Why would this be true? I assume here by 8 multiplet you mean "d4" 8 multiplet.
This is to distinguish from "a2" 8 multiplets like the one inside d4 (first 8 rows of the table
attached before) ; I think this 8 can be associated with gluons.

It would be the vector and spinor multiplets outside the D4xD4.
 
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  • #176
CarlB said "... The usual way of doing QFT requires that one keep the left and right handed halves together and treat them as a couple. What Garrett has done is illegal mostly in that he has split right from left and treated them independently. ...".

rntsai mentioned "... e_L with weak hypercharge=-1 and e_R with -2 ...", which is as CarlB said the "usual way ... keep[ing] the left and right handed halves together and treating them as a couple".

What I do is not conventional, because I have at the fundamental level only left-handed particles (and right-handed antiparticles) with the opposite handedness only appearing dynamically as described by Okun of the Institute of Theoretical and Experimental Physics in Moscow. His book "Leptons and Quarks" shows in detail how it all works within the standard model.
The book may be hard to find, but it would be worth the effort to get it at a library.
John Baez, on his web page "How to Learn Math and Physics" dated December 24, 2007, at
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/books.html
lists books on subjects including Particle physics, as to which he recommends:

"Kerson Huang, Quarks, Leptons & Gauge Fields, World Scientific, Singapore, 1982.

L. B. Okun, Leptons and Quarks, translated from Russian by V. I. Kisin, North-Holland, 1982.
(Huang's book is better on mathematical aspects of gauge theory and topology;
Okun's book is better on what we actually observe particles to do.)

T. D. Lee, Particle Physics and Introduction to Field Theory, Harwood, 1981.
K. Grotz and H. V. Klapdor, The Weak Interaction in Nuclear, Particle, and Astrophysics, Hilger, Bristol, 1990.".

I agree with John that Okun has a good feel for "what we actually observe particles to do", which supports my use of Okun's ideas in constructing my physics model.

In my opinion, the conventional way of having both e_L and e_R at a fundamental level is in conflict with the observations described by Okun.

Tony Smith
 
  • #177
Tony Smith said:
In my opinion, the conventional way of having both e_L and e_R at a fundamental level is in conflict with the observations described by Okun.

Just to be clarify things, it seems that there are three models :

(1)standard model
(2)garrett's model
(3)tony's model

I am taking "reality" to be the same as (1) which has a well defined
e_L and e_R with weak hypercharges of -1 and -2. As far as I can tell
(2) matches these values although I haven't been able to verify that
myself. I'm not getting a clear indication whether (3) also matches
these values or not; if it does then it might shed some light on how
(2) does it;if it doesn't then that's another matter that
can be discussed independantly of trying to verify (2).
 
  • #178
rntsai said:
Just to be clarify things, it seems that there are three models :

(1)standard model
(2)garrett's model
(3)tony's model

I am taking "reality" to be the same as (1) which has a well defined
e_L and e_R with weak hypercharges of -1 and -2. As far as I can tell
(2) matches these values although I haven't been able to verify that
myself. I'm not getting a clear indication whether (3) also matches
these values or not; if it does then it might shed some light on how
(2) does it;if it doesn't then that's another matter that
can be discussed independantly of trying to verify (2).

I think for this you can start out thinking of Tony's model as an SU(5) GUT. That GUT I assume handled weak hypercharges fine. Tony's quote from Okun, however, adds the idea that the helicity related quantum numbers for right handed particles (and left handed antiparticles) are not a fundamental thing. It also means that for Tony left vs right handed and particle vs antiparticle are the same thing in a fundamental quantum number sense. Very much relates to why one only sees left handed neutrinos.
 
  • #179
Kaon physics needed?

Hi rntsai,

You asked if anyone confirmed the quantum numbers. I did, and for the first two generations (8-S+ and 8-S- in Garrretts paper)) everything is ok. The interesting thing happens with the third generation. ALL of the assignments for third generations of quarks and leptons have two quantum numbers wrong.

However, it is possible to arrange this third generation into a nice pattern. I think it was you to call it numerology.

I found the following: for the quantum numbers B2, B1 and W-3 all third generation particles have two of those numbers wrong for an amount of 1/2 or -1/2. The third is right. The table:

1/2, 1/2, 0 wrong offset for: 6 leptons, 12 anti-quarks
-1/2, -1/2, 0 wrong offset for: 6 anti-leptons, 12 quarks

1/2, -1/2, 0 wrong offset for: 2 leptons, 6 anti-quarks
-1/2, 1/2, 0 wrong offset for: 2 anti-leptons, 6 quarks

-1/2, 0, 1/2 wrong offset for 3 quarks, 3 anti-quarks
1/2, 0, -1/2 wrong offset for: 3 quarks, 3 anti-quarks

In these sets the left particles are opposite to the anti-right particles. The pattern seems too nice to be ignored. How can quantum numbers be wrong by a fixed amount? The nicest example I know of is Kaon physics, where you mix two "strong eigenstates" and mix them to the two "weak eigenstates" to get the REAL physical eigenstates. If you do that with the above you should mix a lepton and an anti-lepton "root" to get the physical state. So, both the third gen of leptons and quarks are kind of "kaon" physical states.

Kaon physics involves the exchange of bosons. I expect that the B and W bosons as well as the "flavor shifting" fields Smolin talks about in his paper should be involved. Have still not manage to solve the details.

What I don't understand (among others) how to translate this into the groups you guys are strugling with. Could anybody try to put the sets of particles I identified above into a right group structure?

Jan
 
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  • #180
Berlin said:
In these sets the left particles are opposite to the anti-right particles. The pattern seems too nice to be ignored. How can quantum numbers be wrong by a fixed amount? ...
What I don't understand (among others) how to translate this into the groups you guys are strugling with. Could anybody try to put the sets of particles I identified above into a right group structure?

Jan

Sounds like a Hodge star operator thing. It relates left particles to anti-right particles.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/twf_ascii/week253
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/Sets2Quarks4.html

The above is a bit confusing to me. In one sense it seems like one wants an E6 (or E7 or E8) with left particles and anti-right particles since the spinor part of these algebras relate to Clifford algebra spinors which includes both sides of the Hodge star mapping but on the other hand starting from the SU(5) GUT you seem to end up with just left handed particles and antiparticles.
 
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