News Analyzing the Controversy: Evaluating the Presidency of George W. Bush

[Zero]

Originally posted by pelastration
Whow ... I am learning a lot reading these straight and clear posts.
But reading Zero's posts and some other I am pleased to noticed that Gale17 and Mattius posts don't reflect the view of all Americans.

For those who find the Bible important ... One of the Ten Commandments (form which some Americans seems to be exempted) states :
"9.__ You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."
( Gossiping or telling lies or saying false things about others (in court or anywhere) is against God's law.)
http://www.quietwaters.org/ten_copmmandments.htm

Interpretation: http://billboardsforchrist.org/commandments_viii,_ix,_x.htm#Commandment IX.
" "False" means not true, wrong, lying, dishonest, incorrect. "Testimony" means making a statement under the promise to tell the truth, a declaration of truth. "Neighbor" means any person at all.
satan is the father of lies: John 8:44 - Jesus said to those who opposed Him, "You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."___ See_ Acts 5:3,_ Rev 21:8_".

Of course there are some more Commandments.

Waiting now for a post telling me that this is out of focus.

Yeah, just a little out of focus...care to try to bring it all to a point?

 

[Mattius_]

Oh, by teh way,,,you are describing America as a rogue nation that should be nuked soonest...care to reconsider?

Listen, your morals are far apart from mine, that is your interpretation, not mine... My interpretation is to view things as they are, and then defend the common sense that human nature produces!

Your interpretation is to view things as they are, and then attach your thoughts on how things should be... A romantic approach, but, inevitably, a catastrophic failure...

Dont tell nature how it is supposed to work, nature is the only denominator that is true... don't tell truth it is wrong...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_




Listen, your morals are far apart from mine, that is your interpretation, not mine... My interpretation is to view things as they are, and then defend the common sense that human nature produces!

Your interpretation is to view things as they are, and then attach your thoughts on how things should be... A romantic approach, but, inevitably, a catastrophic failure...

Dont tell nature how it is supposed to work, nature is the only denominator that is true... don't tell truth it is wrong...

Hmmmm...sounds like someone is angry?

So, you say that 'human nature' means that the stong should take from the weak, the powerful should ignore the needs of the powerless, and that might makes right?

 

[Mattius_]

Not mad at all, hmmm maybe it was because i was listening to eminem... lol

So, you say that 'human nature' means that the stong should take from the weak, the powerful should ignore the needs of the powerless, and that might makes right?

I say that an individual should do whatever he can do advance himself... If people are victimized along the way, tough cookies, that's life... When a human advances itself, the human race subsequently advances as well... Isnt that what we are all aiming for?

Now, please don't confuse my ideology with the implication that i support the harm of people regularly... As i said before, If an individual does something to help himself, then let it be done...

I will soon be volunteering at a homeless shelter, I do it because it makes me feel good inside...

This would be a good example of an individual helping himself advance spiritually, right? So, once he feels confident about himself, he goes onto bigger and brighter things.

There you go...

 

[Zero]

Somehow, you skirt the edges of being a sociopath...tell me, where does that come from? I know where it comes from with Bush: failing at everything and still advancing, the psychology of an addict...what's your excuse?

 

[Mattius_]

so·ci·o·path ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ss--pth, -sh-)
n.
One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior.



Forgive me for being so literal, but this isn't what you meant was it?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
so·ci·o·path ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ss--pth, -sh-)
n.
One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior.



Forgive me for being so literal, but this isn't what you meant was it?

If people are victimized along the way, tough cookies, that's life

You tell me, boss...I'm not calling you a sociopath, but some of your statements certainly come close to the definition, don't they?

 

[Mattius_]

I can get attached to people, my best friend is in the last leg of his life, 4 years of slow decomposure, all for nothing... Doesnt get much more demoralizing...

This is my conclusion, be objective, be fair, be without emotion when you make decisions.

 

[Zero]

I don't doubt your ability to empathise with people one-on-one...I do see a disconnect between you and those you would probably consider to be 'other'.

 

[Mattius_]

Everything is mathematical... Issues have values, values which are determined by units.

death of a few hundred people for cause 'X' can be expressed in a mathematical equation. The difficult part is assinging values.

Emotion distorts values, it amplifies individual tragedies to more then they really are. That is why the lack of emotion integral to assigning values to issues. Ofcourse, It may come off as sociopathical to the ignorant.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
Everything is mathematical... Issues have values, values which are determined by units.

death of a few hundred people for cause 'X' can be expressed in a mathematical equation. The difficult part is assinging values.

Emotion distorts values, it amplifies individual tragedies to more then they really are. That is why the lack of emotion integral to assigning values to issues. Ofcourse, It may come off as sociopathical to the ignorant.

I think YOU are the one who ignores human nature. It is 'ignorant' to assume that anyone can divorce themselves from emotion entirely.

 

[Zero]

And, I think we have gone WAY off-topic.

So, what do we have in favor of Bush? He tells lies people like, he does stuff(no consideration on whether his actions are useful or not', and he 'leads'. Low casualities against nations that apparently weren't a threat. Anything else?

 

[Mattius_]

I never said i have tried to branch myself from emotion entirely, that is proposturous.

What i said was that emotion in an important decision(in a leadership position) is bad. You can be emotional in day to day life, but you must leave emotion out when dealing with principal problems...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
I never said i have tried to branch myself from emotion entirely, that is proposturous.

What i said was that emotion in an important decision(in a leadership position) is bad. You can be emotional in day to day life, but you must leave emotion out when dealing with principal problems...

I don't think Bush does that, exactly...I think he simply doesn't care about people who don't give him money.

 

[Mattius_]

Money is a variable for human advancement, isn't it?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
Money is a variable for human advancement, isn't it?

Depends on whether or not you are a sociopath or not...

 

[Mattius_]

money is a possesion, possesions advance the human race, kinda like that possesion your typing on.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
money is a possesion, possesions advance the human race, kinda like that possesion your typing on.

Jeez, I thought it was things like knowledge and freedom that advanced the human race, not greed and disregard for our fellow humans...

 

[pelastration]

Originally posted by Mattius_
This is my conclusion, be objective, be fair, be without emotion when you make decisions.

Be objective ? ... You said lying is allowed.
Be fair ? ... You said lying is allowed.
Make you decisions without emotions ... and without ethics, without respect?
Boy ... there is a lot of experience you have to go through in this life.

Originally posted by Mattius_
money is a possesion, possesions advance the human race, kinda like that possesion your typing on.

Mattius,

I hope sincerely that you will never meet someone that sees and treats you like on object or as a quantity of meat. That seems the way you look to others. Objects, like Nintendo manikins.

 

[Mattius_]

Jeez, I thought it was things like knowledge and freedom that advanced the human race, not greed and disregard for our fellow humans...

Greed and disregard for other humans(in a rational way) are products of freedom. Knowledge comes when people build empires of wealth produced by freedom.

I hope sincerely that you will never meet someone that sees and treats you like on object or as a quantity of meat. That seems the way you look to others. Objects, like Nintendo manikins.

What is Capitalism people? I'll tell you, Capitalism is everything i have said previously! Greed, Self-betterment, and manipulation of other humans. What has Capitalism created? It has created the greatest body of knowledge ever known in history.

You don't like the 3 variables that make up capitalism? Go somewhere else and see how many calories you get a day!

 

[pelastration]

Originally posted by Mattius_
Greed and disregard for other humans(in a rational way) are products of freedom. Knowledge comes when people build empires of wealth produced by freedom.
What is Capitalism people? I'll tell you, Capitalism is everything i have said previously! Greed, Self-betterment, and manipulation of other humans. What has Capitalism created? It has created the greatest body of knowledge ever known in history.
You don't like the 3 variables that make up capitalism? Go somewhere else and see how many calories you get a day!

Mattius,
do you have a religion? Is it Bushism? Or Bull****ism? Are your statements what you learned from Daddy? There is so much alienation in what you are saying. Are you clean?

 

[Mattius_]

My thoughts are my own. I admire no specific person or ideal, except myself, and my ideal. I don't let any religon show me how things work, I find out how things work on my own. You would be suprised at what rationality comes from my ideology if you actually understood it.

 

[FZ+]

Greed and disregard for other humans(in a rational way) are products of freedom. Knowledge comes when people build empires of wealth produced by freedom.

Hmm... have you ever wonder why the majority of scientists are liberals? Maybe then you will have an idea of the place (or lack of) greed has in generating knowledge.

Yes, true, greed is great at building empires, great collections, forging ivory spires. But these destroy the actual creation of knowledge, real learning. Real progress.

 

[Mattius_]

I agree that scientists themselves tend to search for more spiritual advancement, but, scientists are paid by greedy people who want to use a scientists knowledge and benefit from it... Have you ever wondered why the large majority of business owners are repubilican?

 

[Mattius_]

How many scientists can you name that weren't supported by corporations of governments?

 

[pelastration]

For the people having the intellectual and human sensibility and dignity:

For the moment the International Labor Organization says that there are more than 40,000 slaves in Brasile (about 45% in the Fishing industry, about 90% can not write). .

http://www.ilo.org/

Quote: The chief coordinator of this project, Patricia Audi, is far better equipped than myself to discuss the details of this project so I shall not enter into more details at this time. However, it is important to place the issue of Brazilian slave labor in its wider international context. Is this a global problem? Does slavery and forced labor exist throughout the world today? If so, why? Is poverty the main factor to explain it and what can be done about it? What
approaches are needed to root out once and for all an unacceptable scourge of our modern society?
Regrettably, forced labor and slavery are global problems today. They are not relics of a bygone age. They do not survive in a few pockets in remote and isolated parts of developing countries. There are problems of forced labor in all continents in both developing and developed countries, in more open and in more closed societies. It would be rash to speculate as to the exact numbers affected. One author, a well-known author called Kevin Bales, who has a book in ten languages, now, has given a figure of twenty seven million slaves in the world today. This can only be a very rough estimate. At a conference, a very large conference, attended by over one thousand people on trafficking, at the European union in Brussels last week, reference was made to several millions of persons, mainly young women and children being trafficked into slavery for sexual or for labor exploitation. But such figures, I repeat, can at this time only be rough estimates. Forced labor is of its essence a largely clandestine and hidden phenomenon. Who are the victims? The victims, throughout the world, are vulnerable and powerless people often without identity documents or without organizations to represent them. The exploiters may be landlords, feudal landlords, they can be trafficking syndicates and intermediaries linked to organized crime. The agents who force labor, those responsible, may be quite humble individuals, with limited economic resources, such as the gatos or empreiteiros, such a well-known feature of Brazil’s rural labor markets. But the agents can also be highly sophisticated enterprises involved in operations worth billions of dollars.

 

[Mattius_]

This is a tragedy i am aware of. I ideologically support the idea that all people should have a chance... Many of these people didnt have a chance to prove themselves... Unfortuneatly, This is how nature works sometimes... This is rough efficiency, which could be purified if every nation in the world endorsed the 'born equal' clause.

However, at what cost does the 'born equal' premise prove effective? Who or what pays for the 'born equal' laws?

It is my interpretation that the born equal clause is paid for by the wealthy, who need their money to expand their own endeavors... Is there a happy medium?

Not under any logic that i am aware of.

 

[Gale]

Ok well first off i don't think its fair to really attack Matius. Second, this thread isn't really about morals or anything like that. I think that'd be an interesting topic for a different thread but this one is about bush.

My argument is just that even with lies or by any other 'immoral' or 'unethical' means, if bush gets the job done, then he gets it done. As mattius said, we can't really see the big picture deal until later on. Maybe this'll all be for the best, we don't know. I'd say bush is good president just cause he got elected. I'd say it takes a lot of effort and skill to be elected president of the united states. So i'd say whoever can get into that position and stay there is a decent president, even if i don't agree with them.
But maybe we should really decide what defines a good president before we continue this debate eh?

 

[Mattius_]

Its ok Gale, Everytime they have attacked me, i have responed with logic greater than their's...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Gale17
Ok well first off i don't think its fair to really attack Matius. Second, this thread isn't really about morals or anything like that. I think that'd be an interesting topic for a different thread but this one is about bush.

My argument is just that even with lies or by any other 'immoral' or 'unethical' means, if bush gets the job done, then he gets it done. As mattius said, we can't really see the big picture deal until later on. Maybe this'll all be for the best, we don't know. I'd say bush is good president just cause he got elected. I'd say it takes a lot of effort and skill to be elected president of the united states. So i'd say whoever can get into that position and stay there is a decent president, even if i don't agree with them.
But maybe we should really decide what defines a good president before we continue this debate eh?

You keep saying 'gets the job done'...what 'job'? Ruining the country to line the pockets of his campaign contributors?

 

[pelastration]

Originally posted by Zero
You keep saying 'gets the job done'...what 'job'? Ruining the country to line the pockets of his campaign contributors?

This is the job:

Originally posted by Gale17
If it's to control oil, then whatever. We're America, we're supposed to try and dominate everyone aren't we? I mean that seriously though. I think bush is just American, he's doing exactly what America wants, most anyways, which is what a president's supposed to do.

Other countries don't want US-dictates.

 

[Zero]

Is this what it comes down to? That Americans actually believe that anything is ok, so long as it advances U.S. interests? By Gale17's logic, it is ok if we killed Iraqi civilians for oil...which means murder is ok, so long as you get what you want.

The good news, I guess, is that most people with such a sick view of politics usually don't vote?(We hope?) Jesus, this is disturbing!

 

[Gale]

we don't know what "the job" is yet. I don't know if it's to get oil or no. Could be something else. I say that the mark of a good president is that he accomplishes his goals with his county's support. Bush is able to get support and it appears he's accomplishing some goal. Whether overall its good for America in general we can't say yet. But what defines a good president?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Gale17
we don't know what "the job" is yet. I don't know if it's to get oil or no. Could be something else. I say that the mark of a good president is that he accomplishes his goals with his county's support. Bush is able to get support and it appears he's accomplishing some goal. Whether overall its good for America in general we can't say yet. But what defines a good president?

So it doesn't matter what the goal is, so long as he accomplishes it? What if his goal is to turn America into a dictatorship...if he succeeds in destroying the Constitution, does that make him a good president?

You kids watch too much Survivior, and think that 'winner take all' and 'might makes right' are proper human values.

 

[Mattius_]

you kids? was that remark intended for me?

Also Zero, what is the difference between a person calling someone a sociopath and person calling someone a hypocrite?

 

[Jug]

Why is Bush a good president?

>>...who voted for him is a slobbering idiot.

And you are...what?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
you kids? was that remark intended for me?

Also Zero, what is the difference between a person calling someone a sociopath and person calling someone a hypocrite?

I made it perfectly clear that I was not calling you a sociopath. Read back and see for yourself.

 

[MasterKung]

aww man, this discussion was getting good, too bad it ended a few weeks ago, somebody should spark it up again so i can have more fun stuff to read
im not going to join because i don't know squat about politics, very little on current events, and my own morals confuse me. I am surprised i can even walk straight.
oh, one thing though, my goodness, just reading what some of you have to say makes me look over my shoulder to make sure I am not getting stabbed in the back...and i don't even know you. that's pretty bad.