News Analyzing the Controversy: Evaluating the Presidency of George W. Bush

[Zero]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Zero, I thought the question was if he was "good"? Now you seem to be asserting that unless he's perfect, he can't be good.

And yes, keeping casualties low is a goal of the military's leadership, which includes both the uniformed and civilian leadership.

In any case, the primary thing that I see from Bush that is good is leadership. Its the reason presidents have a high approval rating during time of war, but it is very difficult to quantify.

Two questions:

1) How do I make assertions by asking questions?

2) How do you define leadership?

 

[Mattius_]

Hmmm, The purpose of invading Afghanistan... Hmmm...

Well, since the general public didnt even know where Afghanistan was until after 9-11 so I am going so say the invasion had something to do with 9-11...

I think, if i recall, the purpose of the invasion was to...

they arent here, and they haven't been able to get here

oh yea, i already stated that... The primary objective for the invasion of Afghanistan was to root out the taliban and their constituents, and keep them from harming America again.

So, i go back to my original statement:

Who really cares if the taliban and al-qaeda got away? they arent here, and they haven't been able to get here, so who the hell cares?

Secondly, Last time I checked, the civilian casualty count was not available... so how can YOU begin to postulate our brutality? Also, last time i checked, losing a couple hundred soldiers in a war which removes another person from power is UNPRECEDENTED IN HISTORY. k?

please try to avoid being a product of the media. Thx!

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_



Secondly, Last time I checked, the civilian casualty count was not available... so how can YOU begin to postulate our brutality? Also, last time i checked, losing a couple hundred soldiers in a war which removes another person from power is UNPRECEDENTED IN HISTORY. k?

please try to avoid being a product of the media. Thx!

Can I ask you a question? How do you balance the idea that Iraq was a threat to the U.S. with the fact that we steamrolled over Iraq with minimal casualties?

 

[Mattius_]

What did i say before?

In my opinion, the Iraqi war had very little to do with Iraq. When i said:

the war in iraq was much more than wmd's it was aimed to do a multitude of other things. Sure he lied about wmd's but it was his justification to get other things on his agenda done.

Those 'other things' include economic issues, society issues, and the fact it was inherently easy because of our people's general sentiments to the middle-east, and the fact that we could justify it by screaming TERRORRISM!

And ofcourse, along the way, we take a dictator out in the name of 'freedom.'

So, to respond to your question, Id say that you participated in libel, and misrepresented me to the rest of this forum, apologize.

 

[Gale]

i prefer bush over gore, but that doesn't say much. I think gore just would've sat around and done nothing... at least bush is stimulating the media... entertaining...

If we find out years from now that going into iraq was a good thing, then i think bush would've been the only one to do it. So go bush! ...course like Mattius said, its a retrospect thing. Right now we can't really tell whether it was good or bad. I also agree with him pretty much on bush's 'lying' or whatever. He had an agenda sure, wmd was just a means of getting the public to agree with him. He is a good leader... he got most of america steeming with pride, ready to go blow up foriegners, and really half of it wasn't even true. But, again, if we find out later on that it was all worth it, then he's a great guy...

Lets see though... concrete things that bush has done well... i dunno.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Gale17
i prefer bush over gore, but that doesn't say much. I think gore just would've sat around and done nothing... at least bush is stimulating the media... entertaining...

If we find out years from now that going into iraq was a good thing, then i think bush would've been the only one to do it. So go bush! ...course like Mattius said, its a retrospect thing. Right now we can't really tell whether it was good or bad. I also agree with him pretty much on bush's 'lying' or whatever. He had an agenda sure, wmd was just a means of getting the public to agree with him. He is a good leader... he got most of america steeming with pride, ready to go blow up foriegners, and really half of it wasn't even true. But, again, if we find out later on that it was all worth it, then he's a great guy...

Lets see though... concrete things that bush has done well... i dunno.

So, if he tells lies that make people happy, it is ok to lie? Don't you think that it is slightly dangerous to act first, and hope it works out later?

And, do you seriously think that anyone who was president would have done nothing after an attack?

 

[Zero]

So far, we have 'Bush is a good leader' and 'Bush isn't afraid to lie to get his way'...are these two ideas compatable?

 

[Gale]

So, if he tells lies that make people happy, it is ok to lie? Don't you think that it is slightly dangerous to act first, and hope it works out later?

And, do you seriously think that anyone who was president would have done nothing after an attack?

No, i don't think he'd have done nothing but i doubt he'd go to war, or do too much counter stuff at all. He'd just patch things up, try and make people happy, not stir too much up. Which is fine i guess, but yeah, action imo is better. Which, answers your other question. Action at least keeps things stimulated. And there risk in everything anyways, so sure it may be dangerous to act first, but the question is, "is it worth it." and we don't know yet. We don't know what he knows, we don't know what other agendas he was pushing. And yes, its ok to lie. He is a politician. if it works out in the end, i might think less of his personal morals, but better of him as a leader who got the job done.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Gale17
No, i don't think he'd have done nothing but i doubt he'd go to war, or do too much counter stuff at all. He'd just patch things up, try and make people happy, not stir too much up. Which is fine i guess, but yeah, action imo is better. Which, answers your other question. Action at least keeps things stimulated. And there risk in everything anyways, so sure it may be dangerous to act first, but the question is, "is it worth it." and we don't know yet. We don't know what he knows, we don't know what other agendas he was pushing. And yes, its ok to lie. He is a politician. if it works out in the end, i might think less of his personal morals, but better of him as a leader who got the job done.

Is attacking always the answer? And I'm confused about your use of the word 'stimulated'...

And, to play devil's advocate here...if he is lying about his motives, how can you trust anything he says or does? What if his real motivation is to follow the voices in his head, beamed by microwave from Altair IV? Or, just the normal accusation, which is the quest to control the world's oil supplies.

 

[Gale]

So far, we have 'Bush is a good leader' and 'Bush isn't afraid to lie to get his way'...are these two ideas compatable?

guess it depends on what you think a good leader is...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Gale17
guess it depends on what you think a good leader is...

Well, some people consider things like integrity to matter...and some don't.

 

[Gale]

And, to play devil's advocate here...if he is lying about his motives, how can you trust anything he says or does? What if his real motivation is to follow the voices in his head, beamed by microwave from Altair IV? Or, just the normal accusation, which is the quest to control the world's oil supplies.

He's the president... i didn't vote for him... but a lot of other people did. I don't trust him and more than i would any other human being, less because he's so much power. But he's making things happen, which i think is better than nothing happening, so i don't care what his motives are right now.
Now, I'm first going to assume that if he heard voices or was beamed here that someone would have caught on... unless its some huge conspiracy, in which case, i'll just stay out of it. Conspiracies aren't my bag. If it's to control oil, then whatever. We're America, we're supposed to try and dominate everyone aren't we? I mean that seriously though. I think bush is just American, he's doing exactly what America wants, most anyways, which is what a president's supposed to do.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Gale17
He's the president... i didn't vote for him... but a lot of other people did. I don't trust him and more than i would any other human being, less because he's so much power. But he's making things happen, which i think is better than nothing happening, so i don't care what his motives are right now.
Now, I'm first going to assume that if he heard voices or was beamed here that someone would have caught on... unless its some huge conspiracy, in which case, i'll just stay out of it. Conspiracies aren't my bag. If it's to control oil, then whatever. We're America, we're supposed to try and dominate everyone aren't we? I mean that seriously though. I think bush is just American, he's doing exactly what America wants, most anyways, which is what a president's supposed to do.

Wow. I am suddenly scared for the future of America.

 

[Gale]

Wow. I am suddenly scared for the future of America.

why?

 

[Mattius_]

Well Zero, You seemed to have skipped over my post altogether, should that be considered a form of deception? Is deception a form of lying?

Nonetheless, I will skip it with you, because i got my point across last post.

Now then, as far as your battle against falsehood Zero, i would say that without lying, we would still be in caves...

Lying gets things done. Its a way of life, my sister nannies for these 2 kids, one is 5 the other is 2, we gave the 2 year old a box of m&ms to share with her brother, she gave him some, ate some, and then hid the rest of the candy in her car seat. When we asked her to share with her brother again she told us it was all gone.

Lying is apart of evolution, that is where intelligence comes in, if you can lie and get away with it, more power to you! You get the m&ms, the other person can starve, Natural Selection!

 

[Gale]

I'd just like to say that zero, mattius, i love you guys. You're so cool. politics must bring out the best in people.

 

[Mattius_]

Heh, Zero and I have a 'love to hate' relationship... We are always waiting for each other to slip up. The kind of debate that stems from this relationship is often humourous, as it is now...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
What did i say before?

In my opinion, the Iraqi war had very little to do with Iraq. When i said:



Those 'other things' include economic issues, society issues, and the fact it was inherently easy because of our people's general sentiments to the middle-east, and the fact that we could justify it by screaming TERRORRISM!

And ofcourse, along the way, we take a dictator out in the name of 'freedom.'

So, to respond to your question, Id say that you participated in libel, and misrepresented me to the rest of this forum, apologize.

That's funny...libel? Pblackffft!


Oh, by teh way,,,you are describing America as a rogue nation that should be nuked soonest...care to reconsider?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
Well Zero, You seemed to have skipped over my post altogether, should that be considered a form of deception? Is deception a form of lying?

Nonetheless, I will skip it with you, because i got my point across last post.

Now then, as far as your battle against falsehood Zero, i would say that without lying, we would still be in caves...

Lying gets things done. Its a way of life, my sister nannies for these 2 kids, one is 5 the other is 2, we gave the 2 year old a box of m&ms to share with her brother, she gave him some, ate some, and then hid the rest of the candy in her car seat. When we asked her to share with her brother again she told us it was all gone.

Lying is apart of evolution, that is where intelligence comes in, if you can lie and get away with it, more power to you! You get the m&ms, the other person can starve, Natural Selection!

What's next? martial law, maybe go ahead and install a theocracy?

 

[pelastration]

Originally posted by Gale17
If it's to control oil, then whatever. We're America, we're supposed to try and dominate everyone aren't we? I mean that seriously though. I think bush is just American, he's doing exactly what America wants, most anyways, which is what a president's supposed to do.

Originally posted by Mattius_
Well Zero, You seemed to have skipped over my post altogether, should that be considered a form of deception? Is deception a form of lying?
Lying gets things done. Its a way of life, my sister nannies for these 2 kids, one is 5 the other is 2, we gave the 2 year old a box of m&ms to share with her brother, she gave him some, ate some, and then hid the rest of the candy in her car seat. When we asked her to share with her brother again she told us it was all gone.
Lying is apart of evolution, that is where intelligence comes in, if you can lie and get away with it, more power to you! You get the m&ms, the other person can starve, Natural Selection!

Whow ... I am learning a lot reading these straight and clear posts.
But reading Zero's posts and some other I am pleased to noticed that Gale17 and Mattius posts don't reflect the view of all Americans.

For those who find the Bible important ... One of the Ten Commandments (form which some Americans seems to be exempted) states :
"9.__ You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."
( Gossiping or telling lies or saying false things about others (in court or anywhere) is against God's law.)
http://www.quietwaters.org/ten_copmmandments.htm

Interpretation: http://billboardsforchrist.org/commandments_viii,_ix,_x.htm#Commandment IX.
" "False" means not true, wrong, lying, dishonest, incorrect. "Testimony" means making a statement under the promise to tell the truth, a declaration of truth. "Neighbor" means any person at all.
satan is the father of lies: John 8:44 - Jesus said to those who opposed Him, "You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."___ See_ Acts 5:3,_ Rev 21:8_".

Of course there are some more Commandments.

Waiting now for a post telling me that this is out of focus.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by pelastration
Whow ... I am learning a lot reading these straight and clear posts.
But reading Zero's posts and some other I am pleased to noticed that Gale17 and Mattius posts don't reflect the view of all Americans.

For those who find the Bible important ... One of the Ten Commandments (form which some Americans seems to be exempted) states :
"9.__ You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor."
( Gossiping or telling lies or saying false things about others (in court or anywhere) is against God's law.)
http://www.quietwaters.org/ten_copmmandments.htm

Interpretation: http://billboardsforchrist.org/commandments_viii,_ix,_x.htm#Commandment IX.
" "False" means not true, wrong, lying, dishonest, incorrect. "Testimony" means making a statement under the promise to tell the truth, a declaration of truth. "Neighbor" means any person at all.
satan is the father of lies: John 8:44 - Jesus said to those who opposed Him, "You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."___ See_ Acts 5:3,_ Rev 21:8_".

Of course there are some more Commandments.

Waiting now for a post telling me that this is out of focus.

Yeah, just a little out of focus...care to try to bring it all to a point?

 

[Mattius_]

Oh, by teh way,,,you are describing America as a rogue nation that should be nuked soonest...care to reconsider?

Listen, your morals are far apart from mine, that is your interpretation, not mine... My interpretation is to view things as they are, and then defend the common sense that human nature produces!

Your interpretation is to view things as they are, and then attach your thoughts on how things should be... A romantic approach, but, inevitably, a catastrophic failure...

Dont tell nature how it is supposed to work, nature is the only denominator that is true... don't tell truth it is wrong...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_




Listen, your morals are far apart from mine, that is your interpretation, not mine... My interpretation is to view things as they are, and then defend the common sense that human nature produces!

Your interpretation is to view things as they are, and then attach your thoughts on how things should be... A romantic approach, but, inevitably, a catastrophic failure...

Dont tell nature how it is supposed to work, nature is the only denominator that is true... don't tell truth it is wrong...

Hmmmm...sounds like someone is angry?

So, you say that 'human nature' means that the stong should take from the weak, the powerful should ignore the needs of the powerless, and that might makes right?

 

[Mattius_]

Not mad at all, hmmm maybe it was because i was listening to eminem... lol

So, you say that 'human nature' means that the stong should take from the weak, the powerful should ignore the needs of the powerless, and that might makes right?

I say that an individual should do whatever he can do advance himself... If people are victimized along the way, tough cookies, that's life... When a human advances itself, the human race subsequently advances as well... Isnt that what we are all aiming for?

Now, please don't confuse my ideology with the implication that i support the harm of people regularly... As i said before, If an individual does something to help himself, then let it be done...

I will soon be volunteering at a homeless shelter, I do it because it makes me feel good inside...

This would be a good example of an individual helping himself advance spiritually, right? So, once he feels confident about himself, he goes onto bigger and brighter things.

There you go...

 

[Zero]

Somehow, you skirt the edges of being a sociopath...tell me, where does that come from? I know where it comes from with Bush: failing at everything and still advancing, the psychology of an addict...what's your excuse?

 

[Mattius_]

so·ci·o·path ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ss--pth, -sh-)
n.
One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior.



Forgive me for being so literal, but this isn't what you meant was it?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
so·ci·o·path ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ss--pth, -sh-)
n.
One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior.



Forgive me for being so literal, but this isn't what you meant was it?

If people are victimized along the way, tough cookies, that's life

You tell me, boss...I'm not calling you a sociopath, but some of your statements certainly come close to the definition, don't they?

 

[Mattius_]

I can get attached to people, my best friend is in the last leg of his life, 4 years of slow decomposure, all for nothing... Doesnt get much more demoralizing...

This is my conclusion, be objective, be fair, be without emotion when you make decisions.

 

[Zero]

I don't doubt your ability to empathise with people one-on-one...I do see a disconnect between you and those you would probably consider to be 'other'.

 

[Mattius_]

Everything is mathematical... Issues have values, values which are determined by units.

death of a few hundred people for cause 'X' can be expressed in a mathematical equation. The difficult part is assinging values.

Emotion distorts values, it amplifies individual tragedies to more then they really are. That is why the lack of emotion integral to assigning values to issues. Ofcourse, It may come off as sociopathical to the ignorant.