Another dark horse in the MOND race

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around recent proposals in modified gravity theories, particularly in the context of MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics) and alternatives to dark matter. Participants explore the implications of new research on galactic rotation curves and the potential to explain cosmic acceleration without invoking dark matter or a cosmological constant.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants highlight a new paper by Navarro and Van Acoleyen proposing modifications to General Relativity that could explain cosmic acceleration and galactic rotation curves without dark matter.
  • Others express skepticism about the validity of explaining galactic rotation curves without dark matter, suggesting that such claims overlook substantial observational evidence supporting dark matter's existence.
  • One participant requests clarification on what constitutes the "preponderance of observational evidence" related to galactic rotation curves.
  • Another participant references the virial theorem and gravitational lensing as part of the evidence for dark matter.
  • A second paper by Navarro and Van Acoleyen discusses modifications of gravity that may have implications for low space-time curvatures and introduces concepts like chameleon-like behavior of gravitational degrees of freedom.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the sufficiency of modified gravity theories to account for galactic rotation curves without dark matter. While some support the new proposals, others challenge their validity based on existing observational evidence.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various theoretical frameworks and observational phenomena, but the discussion remains open-ended regarding the implications of the proposed modifications and their alignment with established evidence.

marcus
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Another "dark" horse in the MOND race

I'm glad there are several competing alternatives to dark matter.
Bekenstein's TeVeS doesn't have the field to itself.
this appeared today:

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0605322
Dark energy, MOND and sub-millimeter tests of gravity
I. Navarro, K. Van Acoleyen
6 pages, to appear in proceedings of the 51st Rencontres de Moriond

"We consider modifications of General Relativity obtained by adding the logarithm of some curvature invariants to the Einstein-Hilbert action. These non-linear actions can explain the late-time acceleration of the universe giving an expansion history that differs from that of a pure cosmological constant. We show that they also modify the Newtonian potential below a fixed acceleration scale given by the late-time Hubble constant times the speed of light. This is exactly what is required in MOND, a phenomenological modification of the Newtonian potential that is capable of explaining galactic rotation curves without the need to introduce dark matter. We show that this kind of modification also predicts short distance deviations of Newton's law at the sub-mm scale and an anomalous shift in the precession of the Moon's orbit around the Earth, both effects of a size that is less than an order of magnitude below current bounds."

Ignacio Navarro is at Cambridge----basically the same bunch as Daniele Oriti: the DAMPT

Navarro and van Acoleyen have a bid to

1. replace Lambda or dark energy
2. replace dark matter and get a better fit to the rotation curves
3. achieve rapid testability---falsification attainable with only a factor of 10 improvement in the accuracy of measurements that are already made

sounds good. the kind of thing it is nice when theorists come up with.

maybe it will be shot down. and maybe not. if it is not then I would guess that someone at
Perimeter will try ways to wangle those effects using a more fundamental model of spacetime
 
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It's all bells and whistles to me when I hear

"galactic rotation curves without the need to introduce dark matter"

I think that is fundamentally wrong. Just another short sighted explanation that conveniently ignores the preponderance of observational evidence.
 
Preponderance of evidence?

Chronos said:
It's all bells and whistles to me when I hear

"galactic rotation curves without the need to introduce dark matter"

I think that is fundamentally wrong. Just another short sighted explanation that conveniently ignores the preponderance of observational evidence.

Exactly what, in your view, is this preponderance of observational evidence?

And how is it related/not related to galactic rotation curves?

TIA

Jim Graber
 
Virial theorem, lensing and stuff like that.
 
a second post by Navarro and friend in as many days

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0605091
Long distance modifications of gravity in four dimensions
I. Navarro, K. Van Acoleyen
4 pages, contribution to the proceedings of the Rencontres de Moriond: Contents and Structures of the Universe, March 18-25, 2006, La Thuile


"We discuss some general characteristics of modifications of the 4D Einstein-Hilbert action that become important for low space-time curvatures. In particular we focus on the chameleon-like behaviour of the massive gravitational degrees of freedom. Generically there is at least one extra scalar that is light on cosmic scales, but for certain models it becomes heavy close to any mass source."
 

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