News Another day, another (four) murdered in London

[arildno]

Well, here are a few samples, from the US Department of State's 2005 report on religious freedom:
Netherlands:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51571.htm
I quote:

Muslims already faced continuing criticism for such perceived problems as the poor integration of Muslim immigrants into society, THE HIGH LEVEL OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY among Muslim youth, and the conservative views of orthodox Muslims on topics such as women, homosexuals, and corporal punishment. Overcoming habitual reticence and abandoning Dutch libertarian attitudes toward religion, a number of outspoken politicians, mainly on the right, openly argue that Islam itself is incompatible with Dutch traditions and social values.

Denmark:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51549.htm

Minority group unemployment figures, crime rates (especially among young adults), and education dropout rates tend to be higher, and allegations sometimes are raised of discrimination on the basis of religion. However, it is difficult to separate religious differences from differences in language and ethnicity, and the latter may be equally important in explaining unequal access to well-paying jobs and social advancement. The integration of immigrant groups from Islamic countries is an important political and social topic of discussion.

Typical case of Muslim anti-semitic attitudes, from Sweden this time:

The number of reported anti-Semitic crimes has increased since the end of the nineties, and averaged approximately 130 annually during the period 2000-03, with 128 crimes reported in 2003. The largest single category of anti-Semitic crime in 2003 was agitation against an ethnic group with 52 reported incidents, and unlawful threat/molestation second with 35 reported incidents. There were three reported cases of assault during the same period. Some Jews believe that increases in attacks are directly linked to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and increased tensions in the Middle East at large. Since the beginning of the second intifada in 2000, the Jewish Community in the country no longer sees its primary threats coming from neo-Nazis but from Islamic and leftist extremists.


In 2003, four young persons of Arabic origin broke into a Jewish-owned shop in Malmö, shouting anti-Semitic epithets and threats, after which they attacked the shop owner and another Jew. The shop owner was sent to hospital for treatment. Two weeks earlier, Muslims had thrown stones at employees of the Jewish Burial Society at the Jewish cemetery in Malmö. In June 2004, a football match between a Jewish and predominantly Muslim Somali youth team ended with the Jewish players being attacked by Muslim Somali players. More recent examples of anti-Semitic incidents include the harassment for being "from Israel" of a Jew at a commercial establishment in Stockholm in December 2004, and the burning of a swastika at a Jewish burial site in Norrkoping in January 2005.

 

[f95toli]

Hmmm.. I am pretty sure the majority of all anti-semitic hate crimes in Sweden are still commited by white men, specifically neo-nazis etc. Although lately it seems Sverigedemokraterna and other organizations have been focusing on blaming everying-that-is-wrong-in-society on muslims instead of jews.
When in lived in Gothenburg I DEFINTLY got more nervous if I met a group of skinheads than if I met a group of muslim youth when walking home(and I am white and blue-eyed).

But, as has already been pointed out, that has little to do with the topic of this thread.
Not even the tabloids are blaming the increase of knife crime in London on muslims, looking at published names of the victims as well as the offenders I would say it is unlikely that muslims are over-represented in the statistics. And as I pointed out above: Just a few years ago the "hotspots" for knife crime where in Scotland.

 

[arildno]

Here are some statistics on the Muslim prison population in the UK and France:

Over-representation

The UK's almost two million Muslims appear to be nearly three times over-represented in prisons. There are no official statistics in France about religion, but informal estimates agree that Muslims - about five million in all - are again heavily over-represented. In both countries, however, the proportion of foreign nationals among Muslim prisoners is thought to be high.

Source:
http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/Plain_English_Summaries/environment/human_activities/index314.aspx?ComponentId=9854&SourcePageId=11699

 

[arildno]

The renowned British newspaper The Independent ran the following article on a particularly vicious London-based Muslim gang, "The Muslim Boys", and their possible link to terrorism in 2005:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/special-investigation-are-muslim-boys-using-profits-of-crime-to-fund-terrorist-attacks-502831.html

 

[cristo]

Moreover, most of the "Hoodies" I see around here are definitely white and English.

But then I could say precisely the opposite: the majority of "hoodies" I see are muslim or black. It all depends on where you live. I'm not so sure I'd go so far as saying that the gang culture in London is predominantly muslim oriented, but it certainly exists, and is not an odd case here and there.

 

[seycyrus]

ah yes. it seems like arildno has islamaphobia. and a very hot temper.

I have seen indications of neither.

You denigrated him for not providing sources. He provided them.

 

[nabki]

nope, he has not given me 1 shred of evidence to back up what he said. he said 72% in oslo, then he backed down and said 65% in 2001, and he made a lot of presumptions. why don't i go and say that 'western' inmates in the UAE make up 75% of the prison population, say they are all danes? then give you a statistic that is years out of date? and don't you think economic reasons play a part in crime? what he is saying is that theese nationalaties commit certain crimes, and they are all muslims so that means they represent the muslim minorotiy. I'm trying to find the report that says muslims in britan are golden citizens.

Whereas every other immigrant group has virtually the same crime rates as the indigenous population, immigrants from Muslim countries are extremely over-represented:

Here are some statistics on the Muslim prison population in the UK and France:

The renowned British newspaper The Independent ran the following article on a particularly vicious London-based Muslim gang, "The Muslim Boys", and their possible link to terrorism in 2005:

but then again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jan/21/islamandbritain.comment14

Muslim citizenship is enriching for the whole society.

violence and marginalisation have nothing to do with Islam or Islamic belonging.

 

[neu]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/14/knifecrime.ukcrime

And police mistakenly target individuals who, though gang members or associates, are not themselves engaged in criminal action - thus cutting them off as potential sources of help, driving them into gang membership, and confirming the status of gangs.

I've been stopped twice by the police in london for "suspicious behaviour". Both times I was alone waiting for someone on the street, when for some reason a local resident fell obligated to phone the police. I happen to be white and a little studious with my glasses, and I don't wear particulaly "urban" clothes (you'll have to trust me on that) but if I was considered a threat then how are just as innocent and unaware but more "menacing" poeple going to fair?

Now I think this is important and highlights the fundamental issue. Young people are vilified in this country(UK). Not just in public areas but at school as well. If you're unlucky enough to grow up in a deprived area and goto a school where you're assumed to be a faluire a priori then you're f*cked.

Now within this framework of social and material deprivation crime is certain, and violent crime hits the headlines when it's considered flavour of the month by the media.

I'm not saying any of the violence is justified but is it any surprise that it exists?

 

[cristo]

I've been stopped twice by the police in london for "suspicious behaviour". Both times I was alone waiting for someone on the street, when for some reason a local resident fell obligated to phone the police.

If you are hanging around on the street then it is the resident's prerogative to decide whether or not you look like enough of a thread to warrant calling the police. It is the police's duty to investigate such a report. Note that the police have the right to stop and question anyone they like, without having to give a firm reason: they could just say that you were acting dodgily. Quite frankly, I don't see the problem here: if you were behaving yourself, then you have nothing to fear.

 

[seycyrus]

nope, he has not given me 1 shred of evidence to back up what he said. he said 72% in oslo, then he backed down and said 65% in 2001, and he made a lot of presumptions.

Yes.

He provided plenty of references. You must not have not looked hard enough at one of his initial sources, even tho it was in the opening paragraph.

If presumptions were made, he didn't make them, rather his sources did.

His supposition seems to be pretty clear. And he certainly has given enough references to support his exposure to his point of view.

...the muslim minorotiy. I'm trying to find the report that says muslims in britan are golden citizens.

I'm trying to find in his posts where he claims that they do.

 

[f95toli]

But then I could say precisely the opposite: the majority of "hoodies" I see are muslim or black. It all depends on where you live. I'm not so sure I'd go so far as saying that the gang culture in London is predominantly muslim oriented, but it certainly exists, and is not an odd case here and there.

True. But the point I was trying to make is that this is -as has always been- a general problem wherever you live (I live in SW London). Young men killing other young men is not exactly a new problem.
Howevever, it is important to put this problem into some kind of context. Of course we should do what we kind to prevent these kinds of crimes; but the most common cause of death in the UK is still -by large margin- traffic accidents and for the vast majority of people the risk of getting stabbed is extremely low; despite what the tabloids try to tell us.

Many of the kids that carry knifes do so because they are afraid, and for most of them that fear is irrational (meaning the likelyhood of them being attacked is in reality extremely low) but by just carrying a knife the risk increases.
Someone referred to it as a culture of fear and that fear is to large extent due to the way this is reported in the media.

 

[arildno]

....
but then again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jan/21/islamandbritain.comment14

Eeh, you are using TARIQ RAMADAN as a source for how "enriching" Muslims are for the whole society??

Tariq Ramadan, whose brother advocates the stoning of adulterous women according to sharia and whose grandfather founded the terrorist organization Muslim Brotherhood??

Sure, that is a VERY credible source..

For those interested in this very shady "intellectual", I advise you to read Caroline Fourest's book "Brother Tariq":
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594032157/?tag=pfamazon01-20
As for Ms Fourest herself, here's her Wikipedia entry:

Caroline Fourest (born September 19, 1975 in Aix-en-Provence) is a French feminist writer, journalist, editor of the magazine "Prochoix," and author of Frère Tariq (Brother Tariq), a critical look at the works of the Muslim intellectual Tariq Ramadan.

A graduate in sociology and political science, as a journalist she has written many books on such topics as the conservative right, the pro-life movement (France and USA), and on current fundamentalist trends in Abrahamic religions (Jewish, Christian, and Muslim). She served as President of the Gay and Lesbian Center ("Centre Gai et Lesbien"), beginning in 1999.

In March 2006, she signed MANIFESTO: Together facing the new totalitarianism, a manifesto against Islamist Totalitarianism that gained wide publicity and for which she and the other 11 signatories, including Salman Rushdie, Ibn Warraq, Maryam Namazie, Taslima Nasreen, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali received death threats [1].

She has received several awards for her work, including the National award of "Laïcité" in 2005, and the "Award of the political book" in 2006.


[edit] Books

 

[arildno]

he said 72% in oslo, then he backed down and said 65% in 2001, and he made a lot of presumptions.

I certainly didn't "back down":
1. 65% and 72% is in the same order of magnitude
2. I explicitly said "a few years ago", which was correct.

3. What are these "lots of presumptions"??

 

[arildno]

why don't i go and say that 'western' inmates in the UAE make up 75% of the prison population, say they are all danes?

Well, if Danes DO constitute 75% of the prison population in UAE, or EVER HAS DONE SO, then come up with the evidence for it!

then give you a statistic that is years out of date?

"out of date" means NO LONGER VALID.
You cannot claim that a statistics is invalid as out of date, UNLESS YOU PROVIDE NEW STATISTICS!

 

[neu]

If you are hanging around on the street then it is the resident's prerogative to decide whether or not you look like enough of a thread to warrant calling the police. It is the police's duty to investigate such a report. Note that the police have the right to stop and question anyone they like, without having to give a firm reason: they could just say that you were acting dodgily. Quite frankly, I don't see the problem here: if you were behaving yourself, then you have nothing to fear.

I don't have a problem with being stopped, that's not my point, and you have told me nothing new. "Hanging around" implies a swagger or an increased pressence, that wasn't the case, I was simply waiting for someone, sitting alone and not moving. I was behaving myself, and I feared nothing, this was not my point.

My point is that the fact that person deemed me a threat, from my point of view, was a vast over reaction. Why they deemed me to be a threat I can't say, but to me it's indicative of a culture of fear. People fear things like knife crime and street violence and often they are justified (I used to live in Seven Sisters and saw violence in public), but far more often they aren't. Now I'm not saying that people should be critised for being over-vigilant, I'm saying that that in itself can be contribute to the problem to an extent that people don't realize.

If everywhere you go you are treated as an undesirable then you can become a self fulfilling prophecy. My comment is that I was labelled as a threat, then the threat labelling process is deluded. This happened twice under the same circumstances in different areas to me, but I really can't convey the absurdity of the event in words.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I don't have a problem with being stopped, that's not my point, and you have told me nothing new. "Hanging around" implies a swagger or an increased pressence, that wasn't the case, I was simply waiting for someone, sitting alone and not moving. I was behaving myself, and I feared nothing, this was not my point.

My point is that the fact that person deemed me a threat, from my point of view, was a vast over reaction. Why they deemed me to be a threat I can't say, but to me it's indicative of a culture of fear. People fear things like knife crime and street violence and often they are justified (I used to live in Seven Sisters and saw violence in public), but far more often they aren't. Now I'm not saying that people should be critised for being over-vigilant, I'm saying that that in itself can be contribute to the problem to an extent that people don't realize.

If everywhere you go you are treated as an undesirable then you can become a self fulfilling prophecy. My comment is that I was labelled as a threat, then the threat labelling process is deluded. This happened twice under the same circumstances in different areas to me, but I really can't convey the absurdity of the event in words.

I was at work in uniform (a security guard) checking the cars in the parking lot and was stopped by police who had their hands on their weapons telling me to put my hands up. They proceeded to ask me (again, while I'm in uniform) what I was doing on the property. Police are supposed to play things on the safe side. You never know who might be commiting a crime. If I see someone standing around for no apparent reason on the property I work I will likely approach them myself and ask them what they are up to, if they need any help with anything, ect.
I was actually removing fliers from cars that someone had come through and placed on the doors. The officers who saw me thought it looked like I was checking to see if doors on the cars might be unlocked so I could steal something. Of course I thought that the way they approached me was a bit overboard but I think its part of their training to make sure they don't allow a criminal to get the drop on them.

 

[neu]

Police are supposed to play things on the safe side. You never know who might be commiting a crime.

I agree, I have no problem with this obvious neccesity. And only an idiot would take being stopped by the police frequently as justification for criminal behaviour, but this is an important element as it is an overt statement to young people that they can't and won't be trusted.

I lived in a flat in Kings cross directly on a street corner where a gang of around 10 - 20 teenagers just hanged around nearly every night outside my front door. And I found it intimidating and annoying and I did think about the calling the police. But over the whole 9 months I was there they didn't cause me any trouble. They were undoubtably idiots but harmless ones none the less. They were a nuissance. When people did call the police on them, the police were more threating that the kids, they shouted at me entering my flat amongst other things.

I don't want to harp on about my point, but I think it's an understated an important one, if perhaps inconsequential. I just think it's important to see more than the efforcement side of the story

 

[hagopbul]

you won't find 9 stabes
3 stabes are for example are the mayan ,and they are no more off them.. so yes there is no cult that use les than 10 because in most cases the stabes executed by more than one person
and if you found it the number of them will be less than 10%
and no one angry will put in some one budy more than 9-12 stabes and some times they use the same knife on the victim for example the leader stabes 10 times then he give the knife to some one to do it again on the same victim then this man give it to other one to do it agin and so on

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

you won't find 9 stabes
3 stabes are for example are the mayan ,and they are no more off them.. so yes there is no cult that use les than 10 because in most cases the stabes executed by more than one person
and if you found it the number of them will be less than 10%
and no one angry will put in some one budy more than 9-12 stabes and some times they use the same knife on the victim for example the leader stabes 10 times then he give the knife to some one to do it again on the same victim then this man give it to other one to do it agin and so on

Have the Thugee graduated from garrotes to stilettos?

 

[mjolnir80]

i grew up in tehran , iran and we had almost 500 murders a week in the city
to report on every single one is just stupid

 

[arildno]

Have the Thugee graduated from garrotes to stilettos?

Hmm..I thought the Thugees used yellow silken handkerkchiefs to strangle their victims with rather than garrottes..