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Anthropomorfic Fundamental Forces

  1. Oct 19, 2015 #1
    Hello everyone,

    I'm a Belgium based writer, currently working on my debut novel that mixes scientific fact with Biblical mythology. My main characters are the physical manifestations of concepts. Now, Amber, the lead, is Koved, the Malach ("angel"/manifestation) of gravity. Her predecessor obviously belonged to a group of fundamental forces.

    In order to make the characters work, i've added a line that states that they're formed by the collective human knowledge. So if enough people believe something works in a certain way, the character in question will reflect that.

    Now, gravity and electromagnetism seem obvious. I can't have Amber messing with the gravitational constant. But playing with mass seems right.

    But what about the others? What could you do as the weak/strong force?

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Oct 19, 2015 #2

    JBA

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    It appears to me that under your concept that Mass is a property that we sense by observation and the concepts of what controls its elemental properties are more appropriately within the realm of your characters. Additionally, what are the elements of "perception" that causes us to believe that all things are as we perceive them?
     
  4. Oct 19, 2015 #3

    Ryan_m_b

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    Staff: Mentor

    I'm confused by your idea. So people have to believe that mass exists in order for the angel of mass to exist? And this angel can alter the properties of mass in accordance with what people believe about it? If that's a fair characterisation the consequences are bizarre, it would mean that the physical properties of the universe are constantly in flux depending on what the largest number of people believe. Which begs the question of how anything formed in the universe before this to enable the evolution of people.
     
  5. Oct 19, 2015 #4

    JBA

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    Actually, if you are implying that we believe that we exist because we believe in mass then we are basically in agreement.
     
  6. Oct 19, 2015 #5
    I think this concept is much more metaphysical than physics.

    I just see no way to help you scientifically, but maybe others here have something better to contribute.

    Additionally, you might want to research New Thought and its subcategories such as the Law of Attraction.

    The movement started in the 1800 and one of the beliefs or derivations of New Thought is that physical beings are nothing more than pure energy, so what appears to be the physical world is a shared phenomenon amongst a community of pure thought.

    Perhaps these concepts might give you some guidance. From a scientific standpoint there is little that can help with the exception of the observed rules of the universe. Most of the theories, laws, and models from science tend to not support your story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
  7. Oct 19, 2015 #6
    Maybe I should've made this clearer. They are reflections of human ideas. So, gravity has always existed. But the "angel' Koved was only formed when we came up with our idea of gravity. So Koved during the time of Galilei differs from Koved today.

    In our world they basicly can't affect anything. Koved, for example, can only sense the way things are influenced by gravity. Only in She'ol, a sort of shadowrealm, do they have access to their full potential. Technically I could have her toying with the gravitational constant there. But that kinda goes against the whole 'constant' thing. Plus it would make her overpowered pretty fast.

    I agree that this is indeed metaphysical. But still, I'd prefer to inject it with a dose of real science.

    What would you have her do? I don't want to go with the 'controlling gravity means things go floaty' idea. For now, I mainly have her jumping around really high and subtly changing her own mass to help her with acrobatic feats and dodging. And what about the other forces? Despite research, I still have no idea what controlling/being the strong/weak force really entails.

    And thanks for all the replies! I appreciate the effort.
     
  8. Oct 19, 2015 #7
    I'm thinking this is a long distance call between science and Kove.

    I just don't get the point in assigning a being power over different forces and attributes of the universe from a logical perspective.

    It's your story, but maybe a better way to approach this is to better describe where your story line is going.

    I think that the way you described your concept that it is going to fall in the realm of fantasy rather than science fiction because there are just too many disconnects between what you are proposing as a reality and what is scientifically observed to date. That blatant conflict will be very hard to overcome in a science fiction genre. Certainly, there is not scientific principles to support your angels.

    By the way, gravity is not a force.
     
  9. Oct 19, 2015 #8

    Ryan_m_b

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    This seems like it would be difficult to do well, there are so many concepts that humans have observed/created. Is it only physical concepts that get personified? So there would be an angel of toughness, of porosity, of electrical conductivity etc? I also still don't understand your main character, is she the angel of mass or gravity? And why is she different from Galilei's time? I'd bet the vast majority of humans now don't have much more a sophisticated an understanding of gravity than people back then. For most people their everyday knowledge of gravity is that it pulls things down and objects have it. People who have studied it more might understand it better but from what you're saying it's what most people believe that grants these angels powers right?

    As for your characters powers: if she can manipulate gravity then she basically has telekenesis. Assuming she can not only turn it off but create pockets of gravity and tug things around. I'm assuming if you're saying she can turn it off she could also increase/decrease it. All that would rely on a change to the gravitational constant (I think). At the extreme end depending on how powerful you want she could destroy a planet/sun by simply turning gravity off within it and watching as it flings itself apart.
     
  10. Oct 19, 2015 #9

    JBA

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    While you might have some difficulty mating your metaphysical with accepted scientific observations; in the case of gravity, we know that gravity influences the attraction between masses; and, as I understand it based upon Einstein's theory of gravity wells created by masses, the effects are also reciprocal.

    On another issue, we know that electromagnetic waves (at least those we define as light) are affected by mass even beyond actual contact, as evidenced by the gravitational lens effect on astronomical observations.
     
  11. Oct 19, 2015 #10
    I'll keep that in mind. Obviously these "angels" are not supported by scientific principle. They're just a means of telling the story. So perhaps I should worry less about the scientific fact behind the principles.

    And I've read somewhere that the 4 fundamental interactions are also called the fundamental fores. That's where the force came from. Thanks for clearing that up.

    There's an "angel" for everything. But not all of them are on our Earth. Most of them are in Elohim, a completely different universe that was birthed by our universe through a black hole.

    My main character is gravity. But you're right. My analogy could've been better. Good point! I also see what you're getting at with the pseudo-PK, but that's something i'd like to evade if possible. I've seen it in other fiction and it seems like a bit of a cliche in my opinion. But the part about being powerful on a galactic scale is something that i did take into consideration. Eventually she will have to close a black hole on the edge of two universes.
     
  12. Oct 19, 2015 #11

    Ryan_m_b

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    Well good luck with it. I'm not really sure if I can offer you any help. It seems like your story is firmly in the realms of comicbook level science fiction. There's nothing wrong with that but it's the type of thing that conjures a tonne of problems with its inconsistencies. The usual way around that is to ignore it and make up for it in entertainment.
     
  13. Oct 19, 2015 #12
    I can get behind that. As long as the story works out, i guess.That's what matters.

    Thanks for the support.
     
  14. Oct 19, 2015 #13

    ogg

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    Hmmm. Seems to me one of the first things an infant begins to believe about the world is continuity of objects. (of course there's the internal feelings of hunger, comfort, ...) There's many ways to reduce this into 'variables' such as space and time or space-time. Would these qualify? Conservation of volume isn't quite true (a fallen angel?) but its close. Solid, liquid (or should I say fluid?) and gas. Heat. The Earth's pull on liquids, solids, and us. But if you have East, West, North, South, Down, and Up angels and perhaps one or two for time (future & past) what happens when a small percent of us come to understand that there's only one thing called space-time there (with four personalities, perhaps)? Electricity and Magneticism were considered separate till about Maxwell's time. Not quite sure why you think electromagneticism is "obvious". Then there's dark matter and dark energy. And in the quantum realm, it turns out our Universe has an "angel" of probability. Strong force keeps quarks confined. These balls of quarks are called protons and neutrons. If one of your angels doesn't have to "obey" the rules of another, then perhaps you could change the nucleus of atoms from one isotope to another (whether you keep nucleon number, or even charge, conserved is another question). Weak force hmmm...how about allowing for CPT violations? You'll have to look that up, but think of going backwards in time and going "through" the looking glass (mirror). Just some random thoughts...
     
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