Physics Anxious about majoring in physics — considering a switch to engineering

[Dr Transport]

yes

 

[WWGD]

I don't know if this has been dealt with but maybe if you have practical side skills like programming and/or stats that makes you more employable, that may give you some peace of mind in your studies. A middle of the road approach.

 

[homeylova223]

Programming just seems so important nowadays. To me a physics bs is like a math bs, it is interesting stuff to learn at least to me but it has not use outside of academia. No employer gives a dam about delta epsilon proofs or real analysis. The same thing with physics no one will hire you because you know about displacement vs distance and other undergrand physics knowledge. At best you can get a job helping other student do their homework sadly if you can't code...

 

[homeylova223]

This leads to an even bigger question why is the university offering degrees that have no real life application. So much of what goes on in colleges has no real life use English literature,film, most of the fine arts. You do not need to go to college but to be a fine artist, some of the best artist never even finished school like van gogh. Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

 

[WWGD]

This leads to an even bigger question why is the university offering degrees that have no real life application. So much of what goes on in colleges has no real life use English literature,film, most of the fine arts. You do not need to go to college but to be a fine artist, some of the best artist never even finished school like van gogh. Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

So, take initiative and learn programming and/or Stats so you have something to fall back on which gives you some breathing room.

 

[symbolipoint]

I am showing emphasis with italicized bold:

This leads to an even bigger question why is the university offering degrees that have no real life application. So much of what goes on in colleges has no real life use English literature,film, most of the fine arts. You do not need to go to college but to be a fine artist, some of the best artist never even finished school like van gogh. Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

Some has no real life use, and some does have real life use. A person does not know which until later.

 

[dpatnd]

This leads to an even bigger question why is the university offering degrees that have no real life application. So much of what goes on in colleges has no real life use English literature,film, most of the fine arts. You do not need to go to college but to be a fine artist, some of the best artist never even finished school like van gogh. Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

Regarding your critique of the utility of college education, I would counter that it is not the purpose of universities to offer areas of study with practical use. Universities are places of learning, not trade schools.

 

[dpatnd]

Let us not even get into the student loans crisis in the USA.

Though, yes, the debt situation is outrageous. If Master's degrees were funded like PhDs, I likely would never have made this thread.

 

[homeylova223]

Regarding your critique of the utility of college education, I would counter that it is not the purpose of universities to offer areas of study with practical use. Universities are places of learning, not trade schools.

I would say not entirely. For example many physics professor get funding from the DOD so they have to pursue research that is useful the for the military not necessarily something for the sake of learning. Also in the social sciences political scientist get funding from liberal or conservative think tanks. so they often conduct studies which favor conservative or liberal view point.

 

[homeylova223]

I do not want to say college is a scam, but there is no relationship between a lot of what they teach and the real world. Instead of colleges I wish we would bring back the old guilds of the 1700s. In the old guild a young man or woman would be an apprentice to an older person in an industry and learn useful skills, then they would have a career. I miss the old guilds.

 

[WWGD]

I do not want to say college is a scam, but there is no relationship between a lot of what they teach and the real world. Instead of colleges I wish we would bring back the old guilds of the 1700s. In the old guild a young man or woman would be an apprentice to an older person in an industry and learn useful skills, then they would have a career. I miss the old guilds.

Well, take the best you can get. The web and YouTube are the new guilds. And, again, the whole Stats and Programming thing as hedges against uncertainty of job market.

 

[symbolipoint]

I would say not entirely. For example many physics professor get funding from the DOD so they have to pursue research that is useful the for the military not necessarily something for the sake of learning. Also in the social sciences political scientist get funding from liberal or conservative think tanks. so they often conduct studies which favor conservative or liberal view point.

Where is the emoticon to indicate, "interesting"? Should the "wow" emoticon be chosen?

 

[symbolipoint]

I do not want to say college is a scam, but there is no relationship between a lot of what they teach and the real world. Instead of colleges I wish we would bring back the old guilds of the 1700s. In the old guild a young man or woman would be an apprentice to an older person in an industry and learn useful skills, then they would have a career. I miss the old guilds.

Better, change that part to say, "In addition to colleges and universities, I wish we would bring back the old guilds of the 1700's". Other possible adjustments may too be good.

 

[symbolipoint]

Well, take the best you can get. The web and YouTube are the new guilds. And, again, the whole Stats and Programming thing as hedges against uncertainty of job market.

NO NO NO. Not good enough. You need to put PEOPLE together with other PEOPLE. Hooking them to each other through technology alone will not give them "guilds".

 

[WWGD]

NO NO NO. Not good enough. You need to put PEOPLE together with other PEOPLE. Hooking them to each other through technology alone will not give them "guilds".

Fair-enough. How about meetups?

 

[symbolipoint]

Fair-enough. How about meetups?

The nice features about meetups is that initially the members find each other through the internet, and then they arrange to attend regularly scheduled (usually regular) in person all at one physical place. Once they meet in the real place, no technology gets in the way. This can be great for social and interpersonal interaction. Now, on to demonstrations, and training? Well maybe for some demonstrations, but actual TRAINING would still require other direct, live equipment and in a different physical setting.

 

[symbolipoint]

Fair-enough. How about meetups?

Let me add more to this:

Many districts are now limiting social gatherings to 10 members or less. One may guess that many meetups of 10 or fewer people, each wearing a mask, are possible and reasonable enough.

 

[WWGD]

Let me add more to this:

Many districts are now limiting social gatherings to 10 members or less. One may guess that many meetups of 10 or fewer people, each wearing a mask, are possible and reasonable enough.

Of course, I was referring to doing it during " Standard Settings" times and not during extreme situations.

 

[dpatnd]

Upon further reflection, I have come to the conclusion that I need a more decisive way of going about this choice. To this end, I will put into effect a policy I had considered at the start of the year: continuing in physics if and only if I achieved an A for both semesters of introductory physics. I earned an A in mechanics, and so we shall see if I can continue that record in E&M. As @Dr. Courtney said somewhere earlier in this thread, being excellent is a must. My ability to achieve A's in the introductory courses will, therefore, serve as a litmus test for my ability to be "excellent" in the long term, particularly as my current professor (who was my instructor last semester as well) has an A cutoff of 97.5%.

 

[jtbell]

my current professor (who was my instructor last semester as well) has an A cutoff of 97.5%.

 

[ZapperZ]

I do not want to say college is a scam,

Unfortunately, THAT is exactly what you are saying!

You also have no idea what's going on, and yet you don't seem the least bit uncomfortable making such over-generalization. For example, what percentage of "physics professors" actually get money from the DOD? Secondly, do you think most of physics funding are for esoteric areas that you find no application for? Look at the percentage of funding out of DOE Office of Science, and pay attention to what are being funded under the Basic Energy Sciences (BES) category.

You have hijacked this thread away from what OP has intended and asked for. Congratulations for not helping the person who asked for help just to advertise your ignorance.

Zz.

 

[dpatnd]

So I've done yet more reflection, and I have realized that choice in this matter is an illusion. The fact that I cannot afford a Master's degree after graduation is decisive. I will not permit myself to be in a situation where the only way forward is a PhD. Whether or not I go on to get a PhD will be my choice, free of external pressures. Therefore, I have no choice in the present than to change my major to engineering. I have begun the process of switching to EE, as I reasoned that this is the closest I will get to physics. The system has left me with no alternatives.
I do not like myself for doing this; indeed, I am forced to choose between anxiety and apathy. The former is much more unpleasant.

 

[WWGD]

So I've done yet more reflection, and I have realized that choice in this matter is an illusion. The fact that I cannot afford a Master's degree after graduation is decisive. I will not permit myself to be in a situation where the only way forward is a PhD. Whether or not I go on to get a PhD will be my choice, free of external pressures. Therefore, I have no choice in the present than to change my major to engineering. I have begun the process of switching to EE, as I reasoned that this is the closest I will get to physics. The system has left me with no alternatives.
I do not like myself for doing this; indeed, I am forced to choose between anxiety and apathy. The former is much more unpleasant.

It seems you may choose a master's later on maybe even while working ( possible in some programs) if you wish to do so.

 

[dpatnd]

It seems you may choose a master's later on maybe even while working ( possible in some programs) if you wish to do so.

Yes, I believe a Master's is more plausible if I make the switch to EE, which is part of why I feel the change is necessary.

 

[dpatnd]

Well, my first year has officially ended and my transfer has officially taken place. I shall see how this all turns out.

 

[WWGD]

Well, my first year has officially ended and my transfer has officially taken place. I shall see how this all turns out.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[dpatnd]

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Thank you, but does my conclusion follow from the premise? More importantly, do you think it is a mistake to switch into I major I have little interest in and am apathetic towards?

 

[hutchphd]

I cannot know that. If that is how you choose to define your action it is a recipe for unhappiness. Own your decision and proceed. And be grateful that you have your choice of two good options. And there's a pretty good chance you'll end up doing something else before you finish! Good luck.

 

[WWGD]

Thank you, but does my conclusion follow from the premise? More importantly, do you think it is a mistake to switch into I major I have little interest in and am apathetic towards?

Sorry man, I tried giving my best advice but it is ultimately your choice. I can't choose for you, I can only wish you well.

 

[symbolipoint]

Thank you, but does my conclusion follow from the premise? More importantly, do you think it is a mistake to switch into I major I have little interest in and am apathetic towards?

Interest is important. Maybe interest is VERY important. Some of the advice given may tend to becoming recycled. I remind you of what I suggested in posts #'s 15, 17, 20, 24. With continued time, and study, AND EXPERIENCE, you could make a more assured decision about Physics, or Engineering, or what within Engineering, or maybe something else related to Engineering or Physics, or include some number of useful courses and trainings.

 

[dpatnd]

Interest is important. Maybe interest is VERY important. Some of the advice given may tend to becoming recycled. I remind you of what I suggested in posts #'s 15, 17, 20, 24. With continued time, and study, AND EXPERIENCE, you could make a more assured decision about Physics, or Engineering, or what within Engineering, or maybe something else related to Engineering or Physics, or include some number of useful courses and trainings.

I concur, experience is the natural requirement for informed decision-making. Alas, I am required to make a decision now (although I do not feel it was a decision as much as a path circumstances have forced me to take). I suppose, to keep myself positive, I can tell myself that my goal during my undergraduate career as an EE will be to put myself into a strong position from which I may elect to attend graduate school for physics. That would hopefully keep me emotionally tied to physics and give me some purpose.

 

[symbolipoint]

I concur, experience is the natural requirement for informed decision-making. Alas, I am required to make a decision now (although I do not feel it was a decision as much as a path circumstances have forced me to take). I suppose, to keep myself positive, I can tell myself that my goal during my undergraduate career as an EE will be to put myself into a strong position from which I may elect to attend graduate school for physics. That would hopefully keep me emotionally tied to physics and give me some purpose.

Just as a guess, you may have made a good decision. In case you are unable to later enter a graduate program, you should be able to be employable. Keep alert for changes in feelings which you might need to convert to logical rational meaning. What jobs do you want to have? Put yourself into the education and the training for it/them.

 

[dpatnd]

Just as a guess, you may have made a good decision. In case you are unable to later enter a graduate program, you should be able to be employable. Keep alert for changes in feelings which you might need to convert to logical rational meaning. What jobs do you want to have? Put yourself into the education and the training for it/them.

The most specific I can be about what job I would want is that the job should make use of my education (mathematics and physics) to the fullest extent. I elected to switch because I feared I would be too restricted in this regard if I remained in physics; most of our undergrads got jobs in software engineering and data science, neither of which interest me on their own. As I said, the undergraduate goal for now ought to be being in a position for physics graduate school; otherwise, I would have no motivation to study.

 

[atyy]

If you are worried about the employability of a physics major, talk to your professors, career office at your university, learn to programme, learn about machine learning, look out for industry internships etc to help you figure out what you might like to do after you graduate. The job market will be different from now when you graduate, but generally physics majors do fine.

https://www.aip.org/statistics/physics-trends/what-do-new-bachelors-earn
https://www.aip.org/statistics/reports/employment-and-careers-physics

 

[dpatnd]

If you are worried about the employability of a physics major, talk to your professors, career office at your university, learn to programme, learn about machine learning, look out for industry internships etc to help you figure out what you might like to do after you graduate. The job market will be different from now when you graduate, but generally physics majors do fine.

https://www.aip.org/statistics/physics-trends/what-do-new-bachelors-earn
https://www.aip.org/statistics/reports/employment-and-careers-physics

Yes, I am aware of physics majors' employment statistics. As I mentioned previously, I realized that I would be dissatisfied if I studied physics for four years and came out working as a computer coder. There will have been no point in my degree. Therefore, I placed upon myself the constraint that I must be in a position to obtain work that utilizes my education (that is, physics and mathematics). In light of this constraint, I felt I had no choice but to switch to EE, despite the fact that there is nothing in EE specifically that interests me. Regardless, alea iacta est. There is nothing left to do but to go with the flow.

 

[Dr Transport]

So you went into a degree program that doesn't have your interest because you didn't think you could hack it as a scientist. poor choice I would say.

 

[dpatnd]

So you went into a degree program that doesn't have your interest because you didn't think you could hack it as a scientist. poor choice I would say.

Your summary of my reasoning is inaccurate. I went into this degree program because I am not sure that I would want to be a scientist; I wanted to know that there would be realistic alternatives I could be content in. I am at my university because I am self-taught. If there is anything I have learned about myself along the way to getting here, it is that there is nothing I cannot "hack." I've yet to encounter any subject that could defy my will. In that sense, my performance slipping considerably is not a concern of mine; I have conquered classes I have despised in the past.
Might I ask, therefore, what you mean by this being a poor choice?

 

[Dr Transport]

Your summary of my reasoning is inaccurate. I went into this degree program because I am not sure that I would want to be a scientist; I wanted to know that there would be realistic alternatives I could be content in. I am at my university because I am self-taught. If there is anything I have learned about myself along the way to getting here, it is that there is nothing I cannot "hack." I've yet to encounter any subject that could defy my will. In that sense, my performance slipping considerably is not a concern of mine; I have conquered classes I have despised in the past.
Might I ask, therefore, what you mean by this being a poor choice?

In my experience, no passion for a degree doesn't end well.

Now, I did poorly in freshman physics, a C and a B+ if my memory is not too bad. I still got a PhD in it and am working in the general physics field 35+ years later, that is passion. If I thought like you are now, I'd have not gotten as far as I have. Basing your future success on a couple of freshman courses just may not be the best idea.

 

[dpatnd]

In my experience, no passion for a degree doesn't end well.

Now, I did poorly in freshman physics, a C and a B+ if my memory is not too bad. I still got a PhD in it and am working in the general physics field 35+ years later, that is passion. If I thought like you are now, I'd have not gotten as far as I have. Basing your future success on a couple of freshman courses just may not be the best idea.

As you say, you knew your passion and stuck with it. I do not have a passion. I just have things I am interested in.
What do you mean by that last sentence?

 

[symbolipoint]

Posts #88, 89,
"Passion" is not always the same as practical. One should make practical choices. If one has interest, then one needs to ask self if this interest is enough to make the choice to make it his major field of study. Still, one should look for other PRACTICAL choices so that one is USEFUL in the field he chooses or is useful in a closely related field.

Members can role through this topic endlessly but people like dpatnd really need both more education and some experience to better gain the ability to make a decision of major field.

 

[dpatnd]

Posts #88, 89,
"Passion" is not always the same as practical. One should make practical choices. If one has interest, then one needs to ask self if this interest is enough to make the choice to make it his major field of study. Still, one should look for other PRACTICAL choices so that one is USEFUL in the field he chooses or is useful in a closely related field.

Members can role through this topic endlessly but people like dpatnd really need both more education and some experience to better gain the ability to make a decision of major field.

Once again, I concur. However, this educational system forces one to make a decision before said experience and education, with that decision ultimately influencing what experience and education will come about thereafter. Ideally, we would all be able to live several lifetimes and then pick the set of choices we discovered were best.

 

[symbolipoint]

Once again, I concur. However, this educational system forces one to make a decision before said experience and education, with that decision ultimately influencing what experience and education will come about thereafter. Ideally, we would all be able to live several lifetimes and then pick the set of choices we discovered were best.

Not entirely like that. This is a good time for the more sophisticated forum members to discuss the finding of temporary and part time jobs, and internships.

You must also be reminded that you should, during your education, look for courses to enroll in which GIVE you practical skills and practical knowledge, some-many of which have been discussed or mentioned.

 

[dpatnd]

Not entirely like that. This is a good time for the more sophisticated forum members to discuss the finding of temporary and part time jobs, and internships.

You must also be reminded that you should, during your education, look for courses to enroll in which GIVE you practical skills and practical knowledge, some-many of which have been discussed or mentioned.

Our curriculum is fairly rigid, so I will have to rely on my required courses to be the ones with "practical" skills and knowledge.
As for the rest, that is in the future and I will not concern myself with them in the present. I will have a research position next year. Besides that, I may also seek out summer research experiences. Internships may be difficult for other reasons.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Our curriculum is fairly rigid, so I will have to rely on my required courses to be the ones with "practical" skills and knowledge.
As for the rest, that is in the future and I will not concern myself with them in the present. I will have a research position next year. Besides that, I may also seek out summer research experiences. Internships may be difficult for other reasons.

Is this the curriculum for physics, or electrical engineering? I know in your thread that you have decided to switch to the latter, and engineering programs tend to have a rigid curriculum, but I don't think the same applies to the more "pure" sciences like physics.

If you are still a physics major, you should have options to take various elective courses open to you. Many physics students take computer science courses to boost their programming skills (assuming that it is already not a requirement). I know also that Notre Dame has a program in applied and computational mathematics, so perhaps some courses in that department could be of use.

 

[hutchphd]

Taking a slightly larger view, I would like to point out that, for a successful career, these four years represent the beginning of your education.
I think you need to worry less about a four-year plan and expand your horizons a little. Stay engaged and work hard. It matters that you are interested in what you do. You are fundamentally limited only by your imagination.

 

[dpatnd]

Is this the curriculum for physics, or electrical engineering? I know in your thread that you have decided to switch to the latter, and engineering programs tend to have a rigid curriculum, but I don't think the same applies to the more "pure" sciences like physics.

If you are still a physics major, you should have options to take various elective courses open to you. Many physics students take computer science courses to boost their programming skills (assuming that it is already not a requirement). I know also that Notre Dame has a program in applied and computational mathematics, so perhaps some courses in that department could be of use.

I was referring to EE. My transition to EE has officially taken place (humorously, I was unintentionally tricked into making the change official while I was still thinking about it).

 

[Irishdoug]

Interest is important. Maybe interest is VERY important. Some of the advice given may tend to becoming recycled. I remind you of what I suggested in posts #'s 15, 17, 20, 24. With continued time, and study, AND EXPERIENCE, you could make a more assured decision about Physics, or Engineering, or what within Engineering, or maybe something else related to Engineering or Physics, or include some number of useful courses and trainings.

I'd argue interest is essential, indeed the most important thing when it comes to doing a degree in STEM. Id on't see how one can do well in a STEM degree if not interested or apathetic towards it.

 

[dpatnd]

I'd argue interest is essential, indeed the most important thing when it comes to doing a degree in STEM. Id on't see how one can do well in a STEM degree if not interested or apathetic towards it.

My record gives evidence in favor of my ability to succeed regardless of my level of interest. That is because I view grades as important in and of themselves; the class to which they apply is irrelevant. My upbringing caused me to tie my self-worth to my grades. Ignoring the obvious negatives, this has made my near-perfect record possible. My academic performance is, therefore, unlikely to be affected.

 

[symbolipoint]

My record gives evidence in favor of my ability to succeed regardless of my level of interest. That is because I view grades as important in and of themselves; the class to which they apply is irrelevant. My upbringing caused me to tie my self-worth to my grades. Ignoring the obvious negatives, this has made my near-perfect record possible. My academic performance is, therefore, unlikely to be affected.

One may wonder if what you say is realistic; or if it is realistic for most people.

 

[anothermike]

I'm late to this thread, just joined PF the other day. @dpatnd, I'd say you've received a lot of great feedback here, even if some of it was worded a bit harshly.

Having been raised in a culture that trades in shame as a parental negotiation currency, I recognize that, silly as it may be to direct your choices in response to it, for many of us that's just a very difficult to escape fact of life. I do urge you to move past it, but I also recognize that may take many years for you to accomplish.

What worries me the most about your responses is the level of apathy you have stated feeling for your new major. That's never a good sign, and even more so when you feel that way so strongly from the very start. In fact, I'd make that job one as you go forth in your new major, to seek avenues within it that move you away from that preconditioned sense of apathy. You might be surprised with what you find, and then you'll be in a much better position.

The other wisdom I would add, is that looking for top achievement as the status marker for your success and suitability in a field is shortsighted at best. As one other commenter suggested, it's important to have commitment to the path you are choosing, and if at first you don't succeed as much as you might have wanted, persistence and a willingness to try harder is essential. And not just because that's what you do to ward off shame, but because it's what you truly want to do going forward.

I've walked through some of the same decision points you have described yourself, with similar feelings and impressions. Not sure I made the best choices myself, but I'm pretty sure if I'd kept these two guiding principles in mind throughout, I might have navigated them more effectively.

I started off as a Physics major, then took on a Chemistry minor for poorly considered reasons. After receiving my bachelor's degree, I launched myself along software engineering trajectory in the field of computer graphics, in the era when photorealistic rendering was just starting to emerge. Like you, I didn't enjoy software engineering enough to keep at it, and I self-funded myself through graduate school in an Electrical Engineering master's program. I had similar feelings about engineering as yours the entire time I was in it, and for me it ultimately became a bridge to nowhere.