Are Atheists Shaping UK School Curriculums?

  • Thread starter Thread starter phyzmatix
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Schools Uk
Click For Summary
Atheists are launching a campaign to challenge the presence of Christian societies, collective worship, and religious education in UK schools, advocating for equal representation of their beliefs. Supporters argue that as long as Christianity is taught, atheists should have the right to promote their views, emphasizing the need for a balanced religious education. Critics question whether teaching atheism might lead to similar indoctrination as traditional religions, potentially creating uncritical followers. The AHS clarifies that their goal is not to undermine religious education but to foster dialogue and critical thinking among students regarding various belief systems. This initiative aims to address religious privilege in schools and promote understanding of secular perspectives.
  • #61
WhoWee said:
I'll defer to Moridin to clarify exactly what he meant...fair enough?

Nope. Use the context in which it was said.

Furthermore, it is impossible to teach atheism since it is a lack of something, not a positive ideology, like Christianity is.

In other words, Atheism isn't an ideology where pieces of information are taught. Rather, it's the lack of such ideological teachings. You can't teach a lack of teachings.

The meaning is pretty clear from context.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #62
Jack21222 said:
Nope. Use the context in which it was said.



In other words, Atheism isn't an ideology where pieces of information are taught. Rather, it's the lack of such ideological teachings. You can't teach a lack of teachings.

The meaning is pretty clear from context.

Moridin was the one that posted...again, that's the only person who can explain the exact meaning of the posted words...you would agree?
 
  • #63
WhoWee said:
The rules...10 Commandments...are the basis of our laws.
http://www.allabouttruth.org/10-commandments.htm

Off the top of my head...don't kill, don't cheat on spouse, don't steal, don't lie...all things I want to teach my kids.
But killing children is OK if a voice in your head tells you to do so?
Exodus 11 said:
11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go
out into the midst of Egypt:

11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first
born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn
of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite
all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against
all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the
firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on
his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon;
and all the firstborn of cattle.
If you may not steal then you can always borrow...
Exodus 11 said:
12:35 And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses;
and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold,
and raiment.

I wonder when they gave it back?
 
Last edited:
  • #64
Hans de Vries said:
But killing children is OK if a voice in your head tells you to do so?



If you may not steal then you can always borrow...


I wonder when they gave it back?

Let's do this a different way.

If you don't like the basic rules of the Commandments of Don't Kill, Don't Lie, Don't Cheat, Don't Steal, Don't Covet...taught in school...and not from a religious context...

What exactly do you suggest/recommend kids be taught?
 
  • #65
Jack21222 said:
In other words, Atheism isn't an ideology where pieces of information are taught. Rather, it's the lack of such ideological teachings. You can't teach a lack of teachings.

You will have to debate that with the OP. If I get his idea correctly, athiesm should be taught in schools where Christianity is taught. In the US, Christianity can only be "taught" at private schools. And private schools can teach whatever they want. As for other countries, I don't have an opinion.
 
  • #66
WhoWee said:
Let's do this a different way.

If you don't like the basic rules of the Commandments of Don't Kill, Don't Lie, Don't Cheat, Don't Steal, Don't Covet...taught in school...and not from a religious context...

What exactly do you suggest/recommend kids be taught?

I may be missing your point here, but are you suggesting that these morals cannot be taught outside of religious dogma?
 
  • #67
matt.o said:
I may be missing your point here, but are you suggesting that these morals cannot be taught outside of religious dogma?


No...I posted earlier that I don't think religion should be taught (or ridiculed) in the public school system.

At one point we fell into a discussion regarding select items of the 10 Commandments being the basis of our laws. The thread has twisted like a DNA string.

My whole point is that kids have a void for information and fill it with what they are exposed to...good or bad. I think we need to maintain a positive curriculum that teaches and reinforces strong ethics and humanity.
 
  • #68
WhoWee said:
Let's do this a different way.

If you don't like the basic rules of the Commandments of Don't Kill, Don't Lie, Don't Cheat, Don't Steal, Don't Covet...taught in school...and not from a religious context...

What exactly do you suggest/recommend kids be taught?




In Exodus 20 we see the Commandments (from 20:12 and further)

In Exodus 21 and 22 Moses goes on to approve slavery and polygamy.
He orders to kill witches, people with different religions, to kill children
that curse at their parents...

Is Moses the one which should teach our children moral values and
how to be responsible human beings?


Regards, Hans
 
  • #69
Hans, please see my last post...the one preceding yours. I'm not suggesting any religious teachings in public schools.
 
  • #70
WhoWee said:
Hans, please see my last post...the one preceding yours. I'm not suggesting any religious teachings in public schools.

Ahh.. ok, I think we simply agree about the moral values.


Regards, Hans
 
  • #71
WhoWee said:
Hans, please see my last post...the one preceding yours. I'm not suggesting any religious teachings in public schools.
If I'm not mistaken though, you are the one suggesting that moral values come from religion, specifically christian. You were the one that repeatedly cited the "10 commandments" as if non-christians had no moral values.
 
  • #72
Evo said:
If I'm not mistaken though, you are the one suggesting that moral values come from religion, specifically christian. You were the one that repeatedly cited the "10 commandments" as if non-christians had no moral values.

Western moral values do originate from Christianity.
 
  • #73
drankin said:
Western moral values do originate from Christianity.

What about Western Moral values is so different from Eastern Morality? Murder is wrong? Theft is wrong? Adultery is wrong? You should respect your parents?

These are all common ideas in almost all parts of the world. Could you tell me anything that stands out as different other than the duty to convert?
 
  • #74
Ghost803 said:
What about Western Moral values is so different from Eastern Morality? Murder is wrong? Theft is wrong? Adultery is wrong? You should respect your parents?

These are all common ideas in almost all parts of the world. Could you tell me anything that stands out as different other than the duty to convert?

I'm not arguing about the commonalities between the East and the West. What "duty to convert" are you talking about?
 
  • #75
drankin said:
I'm not arguing about the commonalities between the East and the West. What "duty to convert" are you talking about?

Well if the bible is the source of Western Morality, isn't it the duty of the followers to convert the unbelievers and save them from eternal damnation?Also, could you explain how the bible is the source of Western Morality? Were all those in the western world, who did not proscribe to the Biblical view of morality, immoral by "Western" standards?
 
  • #76
Ghost803 said:
Well if the bible is the source of Western Morality, isn't it the duty of the followers to convert the unbelievers and save them from eternal damnation?


Also, could you explain how the bible is the source of Western Morality? Were all those in the western world, who did not proscribe to the Biblical view of morality, immoral by "Western" standards?

To be more specific, it would be Judeo-Christian as well as Greco-Roman culture that has the most influence on Western morals. As posted earlier, the Ten Commandments (from the bible), which came about approx 1600 BC has been a basis directly and indirectly to both Western law and morality for thousands of years. It is not necessary to proscribe to the religion in order to accept the morality that it shares. It is neither moral or immoral for someone who is a "Christian" to convert anyone. I've read the entire bible and have never seen this as a requirement for morality. Western standards of morality has been changing for thousands of years. The bible or Christianity does not define Western standards, Western society does.
 
  • #77
WhoWee said:
Moridin was the one that posted...again, that's the only person who can explain the exact meaning of the posted words...you would agree?

No, I would disagree.
 
  • #78
drankin said:
To be more specific, it would be Judeo-Christian as well as Greco-Roman culture that has the most influence on Western morals. As posted earlier, the Ten Commandments (from the bible), which came about approx 1600 BC has been a basis directly and indirectly to both Western law and morality for thousands of years. It is not necessary to proscribe to the religion in order to accept the morality that it shares. It is neither moral or immoral for someone who is a "Christian" to convert anyone. I've read the entire bible and have never seen this as a requirement for morality. Western standards of morality has been changing for thousands of years. The bible or Christianity does not define Western standards, Western society does.

Just curious, perhaps you could tell me what "Western morals" are? And how they differ from morality around the rest of the globe?
 
  • #79
Evo said:
If I'm not mistaken though, you are the one suggesting that moral values come from religion, specifically christian. You were the one that repeatedly cited the "10 commandments" as if non-christians had no moral values.

I'm NOT trying to say that non-Christians have no moral values. I also do NOT think religion (of any type) should be taught in public schools...but I also do not believe religion should be ridiculed or dismissed by teachers...just avoided.

This is my original post...
"The rules...10 Commandments...are the basis of our laws.
http://www.allabouttruth.org/10-commandments.htm

Off the top of my head...don't kill, don't cheat on spouse, don't steal, don't lie...all things I want to teach my kids."

My point was that some of the 10 Commandments are generally accepted.
 
  • #80
WhoWee said:
My point was that some of the 10 Commandments are generally accepted.
Even I (mr sarcastic) agree with that.
The objection to American's having the 10 commandments on public monuments is silly.
It's about as sensible as renaming the days because I don't believe in Tyr, Woden, Thor, Freya

Of course the 10 commandments (should really be the 7 commandments if you aren't one of the chosen people) were ripped off from the code of Hamurabi during the Babylonian exile - so really America's laws are based on Iraqis.
 
  • #81
mgb_phys said:
Of course the 10 commandments (should really be the 7 commandments if you aren't one of the chosen people) were ripped off from the code of Hamurabi during the Babylonian exile - so really America's laws are based on Iraqis.

Life truly does have a sense of humour! :smile:
 
  • #82
mgb_phys said:
Even I (mr sarcastic) agree with that.
The objection to American's having the 10 commandments on public monuments is silly.
It's about as sensible as renaming the days because I don't believe in Tyr, Woden, Thor, Freya

It isn't exactly the same thing. If you want the ten commandments as part of a monument to systems of laws throughout history, fine.

If you want a gigantic ten commandments display in a courthouse, sorry, no can do. There would be the perception that the US government is pushing one flavor of religion. It would also bring up questions as to whether you will receive a fair trial from the judge, when a giant sign in the front of the courthouse says "Thou shalt not have any gods before Me."

Besides, separation of church and state issues aside, a courtroom is supposed to be a house of law, not a house of religion. Only 3 of the 10 commandments are even illegal.

The naming of the days isn't listed in any holy books. There's a disconnect in your logic.
 
  • #83
Jack21222 said:
It isn't exactly the same thing. If you want the ten commandments as part of a monument to systems of laws throughout history, fine.

If you want a gigantic ten commandments display in a courthouse, sorry, no can do. There would be the perception that the US government is pushing one flavor of religion. It would also bring up questions as to whether you will receive a fair trial from the judge, when a giant sign in the front of the courthouse says "Thou shalt not have any gods before Me."

Besides, separation of church and state issues aside, a courtroom is supposed to be a house of law, not a house of religion. Only 3 of the 10 commandments are even illegal.

The naming of the days isn't listed in any holy books. There's a disconnect in your logic.

Where does a presidential inauguration that includes a prayer by a Christian pastor and ends with a (quite formal) "So help me G_d" fit into your reasoning? And how can there be no connection between the names of gods and holy books?

And what does any of this have to do with courthouses? :confused:
 
Last edited:
  • #84
mgb_phys said:
Even I (mr sarcastic) agree with that.
The objection to American's having the 10 commandments on public monuments is silly.
It's about as sensible as renaming the days because I don't believe in Tyr, Woden, Thor, Freya

Of course the 10 commandments (should really be the 7 commandments if you aren't one of the chosen people) were ripped off from the code of Hamurabi during the Babylonian exile - so really America's laws are based on Iraqis.


I guess the point is you shouldn't disqualify/dismiss/disallow the content of the message because you don't like the source.
 
  • #85
WhoWee said:
I guess the point is you shouldn't disqualify/dismiss/disallow the content of the message because you don't like the source.

To be utterly pedantic, we can't be 100% sure that the "source" is the 10 Commandments as such, or if the 10 Commandments borrowed from existing social rules and norms of the time.

But I do understand what you're saying, I'm just being finicky :wink:
 
  • #86
mgb_phys said:
Even I (mr sarcastic) agree with that.
The objection to American's having the 10 commandments on public monuments is silly.
It's about as sensible as renaming the days because I don't believe in Tyr, Woden, Thor, Freya

Of course the 10 commandments (should really be the 7 commandments if you aren't one of the chosen people) were ripped off from the code of Hamurabi during the Babylonian exile - so really America's laws are based on Iraqis.

Not when the public monument specifically states that "you shall have no god before me".. To too many people, it seems like the government is endorsing the message of the thing.
 
  • #87
drankin said:
In the US, Christianity can only be "taught" at private schools.

I thought this thread was entitled "Atheists target UK schools." What relevance does any of this discussion of the US have to this thread?
 
  • #88
cristo said:
I thought this thread was entitled "Atheists target UK schools." What relevance does any of this discussion of the US have to this thread?

Why did you parse out one sentence that I posted and take it out of context? It belongs to a paragraph that is associated to the OP.
 
  • #89
drankin said:
Western moral values do originate from Christianity.

Yes many valid western moral values such as slavery, genocide, religious intolerance and so on originates from Christianity. You cannot have the cake and eat it too. Also not that the positive moral value that Christianity purports has existed prior to Christianity, therefore Christianity cannot be the origin of said moral values.
 
  • #90
drankin said:
Western moral values do originate from Christianity.

Religions don't create morals - they borrow them. Some of the those morals still stand because they are so vague that you can apply them to any time i.e. don't kill or don't kill innocents.
 

Similar threads

Are Kant, Freud, and Sartre Truly the Pillars of Unbelief?
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
5K
In The United States Today Science, Is Under Attack As Never Before
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
Philip Johnson's Darwin on Trial
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K