Are Horoscopes Truly Reflective of Reality?

[0TheSwerve0]

Kerrie, do you use Koch or Placidus? It's set Placidus, but I've heard Koch is also good for natal charts.

 

[Kerrie]

I thought you had the same opinion of horoscopes.

Tom, this is from the first paragraph of the link:

While we're at it, let's stop using the phrase "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual." Every time I hear anyone call themselves "spiritual," it's just after they mention astrology and just before I land a flying elbow to their ovaries (as anyone who believes in astrology is undoubtedly a woman who needs to be punched in the crotch

Blatantly ignorant...it also stereotypes those who think they know something of astrology and those who understand how it works as one group of people, which is not the reality...

the source of the website comes from one arrogant and self-righteous author, and his/her attitude that most of our quality members here are above.

as a teacher of science Tom, you should do your homework on something like this before condoning it

 

[Kerrie]

Kerrie, do you use Koch or Placidus? It's set Placidus, but I've heard Koch is also good for natal charts.

placidus, i have yet to learn about koch...when life lends me some time, i will read up on it!

 

[Entropy]

I always found this webpage properly conveys my opinion of horoscopes.

http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=astrology

Ha! I love Maddox! I got one of his shirts with his picture that looks like El Che and people ask me if I'm a communist.

 

[quantumdude]

as a teacher of science Tom, you should do your homework on something like this before condoning it

But it was so funny!

 

[Gokul43201]

How important is the time of birth ? And how sensitive to the time is the accuracy of the chart ? Even if this system is intrinsically flawless, would there not be a large number of incorrect readings for people born in the 60s and 70s because of the changes in the standard time scales and calendars (even assumng all hospital clocks were synchronized to GMT or some established standard) ?

Both time scales and calendars (see BobG's related posts in GD and Brain Teasers) were so wrong during most of this time, that really, anyone born between 1967 and 1977 doesn't know really when he/she was born. So would it be unwise/unethical to draw up a horoscope for any such person ?

 

[0TheSwerve0]

How important is the time of birth ? And how sensitive to the time is the accuracy of the chart ? Even if this system is intrinsically flawless, would there not be a large number of incorrect readings for people born in the 60s and 70s because of the changes in the standard time scales and calendars (even assumng all hospital clocks were synchronized to GMT or some established standard) ?

Both time scales and calendars (see BobG's related posts in GD and Brain Teasers) were so wrong during most of this time, that really, anyone born between 1967 and 1977 doesn't know really when he/she was born. So would it be unwise/unethical to draw up a horoscope for any such person ?

Time of birth creates the divisions for the cusps of the houses and the angles (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th house cusp). You can still interpret planets in signs and aspects (the Moon is the fastest moving but still stays within one sign for about a day). But yes, it is a big part of synthesizing a chart, but not a total loss. In that case, I guess you'd have to ask someone who was there wearing their own watch.

Example, You know you have your Moon in Aquarius but since you don't know the house it is in, you won't know which affairs the Moon is concerned with. If you did know your exact time, and found out your Moon was in the 9th house, you'd know your Moon (emotions, unconscious self, comfort) are tied to travel, higher learning, foreign lands, new encounters/ideas/cultures (the 9th house affairs). But even without this you could still interpret how the Moon deals with Aquarian energy.

 

[loseyourname]

Who invented the natal chart and astrology? How was it invented and by what means? I don't understand how a celestial body can suddenly influence you at the time of birth. So the moment your head finds air out of your mom a few stars rain some power down on you and you can now be decribed by a natal chart? I am very confused.

You know, I had these same questions, and according to Swerve, it isn't the celestial body that influences your tendencies. It's really just the time and location that you are in when born, based upon some principle that cycles of the heavens mimic cycles in the behavioral tendencies of human beings (something to do with the connectedness of person and nature that Kerrie speaks of). This allows names based on the presence of a certain constellation to be used to describe a particular class of behavioral tendencies, but the correlation of constellation and tendency is only incidental, not causal.

I still don't really understand it. The main issue I see is that even if we were to believe that tendencies can be imparted solely by temporal-spatial location, it still seems to me that they should be imparted at the time of conception, not at birth. Birth just seems so arbitrary. Why would I have had different tendencies had I not been born premature? Either way, every chart I've seen her do has been pretty good and she actually has helped me to understand certain things about myself.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

You know, I had these same questions, and according to Swerve, it isn't the celestial body that influences your tendencies. It's really just the time and location that you are in when born, based upon some principle that cycles of the heavens mimic cycles in the behavioral tendencies of human beings (something to do with the connectedness of person and nature that Kerrie speaks of). This allows names based on the presence of a certain constellation to be used to describe a particular class of behavioral tendencies, but the correlation of constellation and tendency is only incidental, not causal.

I still don't really understand it. The main issue I see is that even if we were to believe that tendencies can be imparted solely by temporal-spatial location, it still seems to me that they should be imparted at the time of conception, not at birth. Birth just seems so arbitrary. Why would I have had different tendencies had I not been born premature? Either way, every chart I've seen her do has been pretty good and she actually has helped me to understand certain things about myself.

Here's the text for that info

 

[Kerrie]

The main issue I see is that even if we were to believe that tendencies can be imparted solely by temporal-spatial location, it still seems to me that they should be imparted at the time of conception, not at birth. Birth just seems so arbitrary. Why would I have had different tendencies had I not been born premature? Either way, every chart I've seen her do has been pretty good and she actually has helped me to understand certain things about myself.

the actual birth is used because that is the moment a person is breathing on their own and thus separate from their mother...think about it: a fetus is completely reliant on their mother until the cord is cut and they begin breathing on their own...

 

[Kerrie]

Here's the text for that info

ahh yes, I do enjoy Kevin Burk Swerve...I highly recommend his books to those who have a unbiased curiosity to astrology...

 

[Andromeda321]

I don't believe in astrology. If anyone must know why, it's a simple reason: my twin brother. We were born within minutes of each other so we should be pretty much the same, right? Well guess what, we're not: he's off in a warm state studying business and partying more then he should while I'm freezing next to a Great Lake studying physics with no inclination to go partying every Friday. Other then a striking similarity you normally don't get in fraternal twins and a similar upbringing we're not the same at all.
If that's not enough for you I knew two girls who were identical twins born a mere two minutes apart. One died suddenly a few years ago and the other has gone on with a very furfilling life. Now they would've had the same sign, birthdate, cusp, and anything else you can think up but their lives played out in completely different ways. Just shows how little bearing it all really has on a person's life.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

One astrologer compared one's natal as the deck of cards you are dealt, it's up to you how you play. Other things still influence you: parents, individual experiences, genes, etc. Even if you had the exact same life, there is no guarantee that you would turn out the same. You are still different people, you just have the same influences working on you. Do you know if you have the same ascendant and house cusps? That could change within minutes, but it isn't likely if it was say 2 or 3 minutes.

Edit: http://www.twinstuff.com/astrology3.html
Also, by Kevin Burk
http://www.astro-horoscopes.com/HTML/AskKevin/990223b.html
http://www.astro-horoscopes.com/HTML/AskKevin/021006b.html
http://www.astro-horoscopes.com/HTML/AskKevin/961231.html

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Saint, are you sure your time of birth was 6:15 am and not rounded off? Just want to be sure.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Hey, your profile says you were born in '77. This isn't a ploy to mess up my predictions is it?

 

[Kerrie]

I don't believe in astrology. If anyone must know why, it's a simple reason: my twin brother. We were born within minutes of each other so we should be pretty much the same, right? Well guess what, we're not: he's off in a warm state studying business and partying more then he should while I'm freezing next to a Great Lake studying physics with no inclination to go partying every Friday. Other then a striking similarity you normally don't get in fraternal twins and a similar upbringing we're not the same at all.
If that's not enough for you I knew two girls who were identical twins born a mere two minutes apart. One died suddenly a few years ago and the other has gone on with a very furfilling life. Now they would've had the same sign, birthdate, cusp, and anything else you can think up but their lives played out in completely different ways. Just shows how little bearing it all really has on a person's life.

astrology is not meant to predict your exact identity...this is the biggest misconception of it.

another misconception among hard core skeptics is they try to apply the scientific method to astrology, thus it is doomed to fail in their eyes.

ASTROLOGY IS NOT A SCIENCE AND IT DOES NOT CLAIM TO BE astrology is a guide or tool into understanding the human psyche in relation to the large bodies of celestial mass...it is a study of these cycles.

 

[loseyourname]

If that's not enough for you I knew two girls who were identical twins born a mere two minutes apart. One died suddenly a few years ago and the other has gone on with a very furfilling life. Now they would've had the same sign, birthdate, cusp, and anything else you can think up but their lives played out in completely different ways. Just shows how little bearing it all really has on a person's life.

It's worth noting here that identical twins also share a common genome, yet they are fully capable of living different lives and even having a great deal of behavioral dissimilarities. Still, no one discounts that genetics plays a role in shaping the human person.

In response to Kerrie's justification of sun signs being imparted at birth rather than at conception, I can see what you mean about separating for the first time from the mother. Having a separate blood stream and a separate source of oxygen and all that just, by itself, doesn't seem enough. It sounds more symbolic than anything. So I suppose my question becomes: What is it symbolic of? Is there some kind of psychic connection between mother and fetus being postulated during the natal period that inhibits individual personality development? Is this then broken, allowing the child to develop an individual personality, only at birth?

 

[Kerrie]

In response to Kerrie's justification of sun signs being imparted at birth rather than at conception, I can see what you mean about separating for the first time from the mother. Having a separate blood stream and a separate source of oxygen and all that just, by itself, doesn't seem enough. It sounds more symbolic than anything. So I suppose my question becomes: What is it symbolic of? Is there some kind of psychic connection between mother and fetus being postulated during the natal period that inhibits individual personality development? Is this then broken, allowing the child to develop an individual personality, only at birth?

astrology assumes that, once the child is breathing on their own without any sort of reliance upon their mother for life, the child then has "free will"...your words "allowing the child to develop an individual personality" is this free will being excercised...the time of birth shows (or natal chart) shows the strengths and weaknesses this individual may harbor during their life..

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Kerrie, you may remember that I posted a news story that cited new evidence that some diseases appear to be linked to one's date of birth. That link is dead but I found a couple of other references. I found this to be interesting and worth comparing to some astsrological claims. I also like to consider that with systems like Astrology, something might be true or partly true, but it is believed to be true for all of the wrong reasons. Anyway, FYI.

Birthday in March, April, May, or June? You have a higher risk for MS.
http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=48

Birthday link to coeliac condition
http://www.glutafin.co.uk/en/article.asp?chco_id=47

 

[Saint]

what is natal chart? where can i get it?

 

[Kerrie]

Kerrie, you may remember that I posted a news story that cited new evidence that some diseases appear to be linked to one's date of birth. That link is dead but I found a couple of other references. I found this to be interesting and worth comparing to some astsrological claims. I also like to consider that with systems like Astrology, something might be true or partly true, but it is believed to be true for all of the wrong reasons. Anyway, FYI.

Birthday in March, April, May, or June? You have a higher risk for MS.
http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=48

Birthday link to coeliac condition
http://www.glutafin.co.uk/en/article.asp?chco_id=47

very interesting reads...i would be curious to know if those born in the southern hemisphere have these conditions exactly 6 months later (or earlier). these articles "expressed" that environment was more of a factor then astrology itself (which i can certainly buy), and the astrological influence was very general as oppossed to more specific.

i don't think that many skeptics understand just how specific astrology truly is. they buy into the month the sun was in a certain position can tell you what a great lover you are. instead, you have all planets in relation to the earth, in relation to one another which is hundreds of translations of aspects to look at and understand. what the astrologist does with all of these translations is find the "theme" of them, what they all are tending to express about the person, whether they be a positive or negative quality. that intepretation of these aspects is the hardest part about being objective of astrology. thus, why astrology is truly called "The Study of Cycles".

in my opinion, the fine art of astrology is much more deeper then science is able to probe into at this current time of our understanding.

another point many skeptics don't know is the greatest past astronomers who have set a foundation for the knowledge today also had an understanding of astrology. take johannes kepler~a very accomplished astrologer that observed a triple conjunction of mars, jupiter, & saturn that happens every 800 years-and he concluded that this was perhaps the "star of bethlehem" because that was right about the time this had suppossedly happened. tycho brahe, another well known astronomer was able to predict outbreaks of plagues using astronomical placements.

unfortunately, astrology has been degraded to nothing more then a fortune telling scheme that gets hardly any respect or research. this is why when a skeptic makes the claim that astrology is BS, I dare them to read an astrology textbook (such as the ones swerve and i have recommended) so that their opinion is less biased. those who understand it have put the time forth and understand the depths of it...those who use it as a fortune telling scheme are no better then the ignorant skeptics crying BS.

 

[Kerrie]

what is natal chart? where can i get it?

saint, have you been reading any of this?

 

[Gokul43201]

saint, have you been reading any of this?

Frustrating, isn't it ?

 

[Saint]

i get it from here,
http://www.alabe.com/freechart/

who can interpret it

 

[Saint]

will i be millionaire one day or not?

 

[check]

will i be millionaire one day or not?

Jeez, give it up, Saint. There are more important things in life than money.

 

[Evo]

Saint, 0TheSwerve0 was nice enough to do your chart already. I will look back to see if she interpreted it for you.

For starters, here's your chart Saint

I'm presently worming out all the secrets from it

edit: Saint, she had some questions for you. Maybe if you ask her very nicely, she may do it for you.

 

[Moonbear]

Saint, on the chart you found for yourself, you have your time of birth listed as 6:05 AM, and before you said it was 6:15 AM. According to TheSwerve, having the correct time makes a difference, so make sure you gave her the right information before she can help you interpret it.

However, if you read what Kerrie and TheSwerve posted, you'd already know they can't tell you whether you'll be a millionaire from your chart.

Would you be more likely to be believe them if they told you yes?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I can't get past the notion that Astrology is a mapping of highly complex cycles. By chance alone it is likely to coincide with many other cycles in nature.

 

[Saint]

i will check my birth certificate for my exact time of birth