Are photons affected differently by gravity?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Nethral
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Gravity Photons
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the effects of gravity on photons, exploring whether different energies of light (e.g., blue vs. red) experience gravity differently. Participants examine concepts such as gravitational redshift, bending of light, and the implications of general relativity on the behavior of photons in gravitational fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that energy and mass are related, suggesting that more energetic light could be more affected by gravity, similar to heavier objects.
  • Others argue that the change in momentum of the Earth due to passing light is proportional to the energy of the light, implying a relationship between energy and gravitational effects.
  • One participant questions whether blue light would be bent more than red light or experience greater gravitational redshift, indicating uncertainty about the effects of energy on these phenomena.
  • Another participant asserts that in general relativity, the paths of red and blue light are determined by geodesics, which do not depend on the energy of the photons.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of photons' energy on their gravitational influence, suggesting that blue photons could create a stronger gravitational field than red photons due to their higher energy.
  • There is a challenge regarding how photons, which have no rest mass, can produce a gravitational field, with some asserting that energy and momentum still affect spacetime curvature.
  • A participant shares a parable illustrating the geometric nature of gravity, emphasizing the difference between Newtonian and Einsteinian views of gravitational interaction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the energy of photons affects their gravitational interaction, with some asserting that it does while others maintain that gravitational effects are independent of photon energy. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of how gravity interacts with photons of different energies.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference concepts from general relativity and classical physics, but there are unresolved questions about the implications of these theories on the behavior of light in gravitational fields. The discussion includes assumptions about the nature of energy and gravity that are not fully explored.

  • #91
starthaus said:
We need to abandon this line of thinking and look at the equations of motion as derived from the Euler-Lagrange equations. You can see that the Lagrangian for the massless photon (corresponding to the Maxwell equations, page 149, eq.1) is quite different from the Maxwell-Proca Lagrangian (by the presence of the term in "m"). Earlier in this thread, before the discussion veered into speculations relative to "massive" photons, I posted the equation of motion for the massless photon as derived from the Maxwell Lagrangian.

No, the Maxwell Lagragian gives the equation of motion (i.e., the field equation) for the electromagnetic field, not equation of motion for the zero rest mass particles in Schwarzschild spacetime.
starthaus said:
I would like to challenge someone else, to write down the equations of motion as derived from the Maxwell-Proca Lagrangian. Only then, we can answer if the "massive" photons are "rainbowed" or not in a gravitational field. Unfortunately, since they do not exist, we cannot test the predictions of the Proca theory on this particular case.

The Maxwell-Proca Lagrangian gives the equation of motion (i.e., the field equation) for a massive spin-1 field, not the equation of motion for the zero rest mass particles in Schwarzschild spacetime.
starthaus said:
Math gives us the precise answer to your question.
The trajectory of a non-charged test particle in a non-rotating gravitational field is given by:

d^2u/dphi^2+u=m/h^2+3mu^2

where h=angular momentum/unit of rest mass and m=GM/c^2 is related to the Schwarzschild radius

For ANY frequency photon, rest mass=0 so h=infinity

The equation becomes:

d^2u/dphi^2+u=3mu^2

These equations of motion for massive and zero rest mass particles are derived from Lagrangians constructed from the Schwarzschild metric, not from the Maxwell and Maxwell-Proca Lagrangians. The first equation is appropriate for massive spin-1 quanta (massive "photons"), while the second equation is appropriate for massless spin-1 quanta (massless photons).

The dispersion relation for massive photons written in the form

k = \sqrt{\omega^2 - m^2}

shows that spatial momentum (as measured in a particular frame) depends on frequency, and thus h depends on frequency.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #92
George Jones said:
These equations of motion for massive and zero rest mass particles are derived from Lagrangians constructed from the Schwarzschild metric, not from the Maxwell and Maxwell-Proca Lagrangians.

Correct, so we can narrow the challenge to a simple question: find out the expression for "h" in the Proca formalism. Does "h" in post #38 depend on the speed of "massive" photons or not?
 
Last edited:
  • #93
starthaus said:
Correct, so we can narrow the challenge to a simple question: find out the expression for "h" in the Proca formalism.

This can be done fairly easily, but I am quite drained right now. If no one does it sooner, I will post tomorrow.
starthaus said:
Does "h" depend on the speed of "massive" photons or not?

Yes, it depends on spatial velocity (with respect to a particular frame).
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 46 ·
2
Replies
46
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 95 ·
4
Replies
95
Views
7K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K