Are there collective modes on Spin Foams or LQG?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of collective modes in Spin Foams (SF) and Loop Quantum Gravity (LQG), exploring concepts such as coherent states, semiclassical spacetime, and potential emergent quasi-particles. Participants examine theoretical implications and connections to quantum chaos, as well as the coupling of Standard Model quantum field theory to SF models.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that collective modes may emerge from the phase space of random lattices in SF, similar to phonons.
  • Others propose that coherent states could be considered collective modes from the perspective of elementary excitations.
  • There is uncertainty about whether the concept of collective excitations applies to SF, as some argue that SF does not "vibrate" but exists as a collective excitation on the vacuum.
  • One participant mentions the possibility of quasi-particles emerging from strongly spin systems, likening them to spin waves.
  • Discussion includes the analysis of kinematics and dynamics related to spin flips and propagation.
  • Some participants inquire about the existence of semiclassical spacetime in SF models and reference related papers on coherent states and graviton propagators.
  • Questions arise regarding the coupling of conventional Standard Model quantum field theory to SF models, with some noting existing derivations for scalars and vector particles but a lack of detailed derivations for fermions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of collective modes to SF, with no consensus on whether semiclassical spacetime exists in SF models. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the coupling of Standard Model QFT to SF models.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of collective modes and semiclassical spacetime, as well as unresolved mathematical steps related to the coupling of theories.

MTd2
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Like phonons?
Even if SF is a random lattice, there might be modes emerging from some space of phase space.

Look at this example from BEC quantum Chaos:

http://www.theo-phys.uni-essen.de/tp/forsch/bec.html
 
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What exactly do you mean by "collective"?

I would say that coherent states are - from the perspective of elementary excitations - something like collective modes.

I am not sure if the concept of collective excitations carries over to SF, because the foam does not "vibrate", it exists. And the existence of a huge macroscopic SF is already in some sense a collective excitation on the vacuum, just as a macrosocopic coherent state of photons.

So I would say that a semiclassical spacetime is a collective mode. Therefore your question is closely related to the question if semiclassical spacetime exists in SF models.
 
I was thinking about the spins on nodes. Maybe quai- particles could emerge from strongly spin systems, like spin waves.
 
Yes,

one can split the analysis according to
- kinematics: SU(2)-allowed "spin flips"
- dynamics: propagation ...
 
Hmm, really? Any paper on that?
 
BTW, given that the lattice is random, should we expect quantum chaos?
 
tom.stoer said:
What exactly do you mean by "collective"?

I would say that coherent states are - from the perspective of elementary excitations - something like collective modes.

I am not sure if the concept of collective excitations carries over to SF, because the foam does not "vibrate", it exists. And the existence of a huge macroscopic SF is already in some sense a collective excitation on the vacuum, just as a macrosocopic coherent state of photons.

So I would say that a semiclassical spacetime is a collective mode. Therefore your question is closely related to the question if semiclassical spacetime exists in SF models.

Do semiclassical spacetime exist in SF models?
 
ensabah6 said:
Do semiclassical spacetime exist in SF models?
I have to check. There are papers regarding coherent states; I think these are rather close to semiclassical spacetime. In addition there are papers regarding the long-wavelength limit for the graviton propagator, again related to semiclassical spacetime.
 
tom.stoer said:
I have to check. There are papers regarding coherent states; I think these are rather close to semiclassical spacetime. In addition there are papers regarding the long-wavelength limit for the graviton propagator, again related to semiclassical spacetime.

Can conventional SM QFT be easily coupled to SF models?
 
  • #10
ensabah6 said:
Can conventional SM QFT be easily coupled to SF models?

For "old fashioned" LQG there are derivations at least for scalars and vector particles. For fermions I have seen classical approaches studying the Holst or Nieh-Yan action, but never a full LQG / SF model. Nevertheless people are talking about LQG methods applied to SUGRA.

Honestly: nobody expects serious obstacles - not even for fermions - but there is no detailed derivation for SM+SF yet.
 

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