Are they moving faster than light?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the question of whether some galaxies are receding from us at speeds exceeding that of light, and the implications of this phenomenon on the established speed limit of 300,000 km/s. The scope includes theoretical considerations in cosmology and the interpretation of redshift data.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that many galaxies are receding faster than light, particularly those with a redshift of 1.6 or more, and question if this contradicts the speed limit set by Special Relativity.
  • One participant explains that while galaxies can recede faster than light, this does not mean they can catch up to or surpass a photon of light, as that would violate Special Relativity.
  • It is noted that the concept of recession speed is tied to the expansion of space and that Special Relativity applies locally, not over cosmological distances where spacetime is curved.
  • A technical point is raised regarding the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) as a universal reference frame, which helps define simultaneity and provides a standard for measuring recession speeds.
  • Participants mention tools like cosmology calculators to explore recession speeds at various redshifts, suggesting that these can provide insights into the phenomenon discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of galaxies receding faster than light, with some supporting the idea that it does not contradict established physics, while others raise concerns about the interpretation of these speeds in relation to Special Relativity. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader implications of these observations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the implications of recession speeds, particularly in relation to the assumptions about the applicability of Special Relativity over large cosmological scales and the definitions of simultaneity in an expanding universe.

Desiree
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I have heard and read that some galaxies are receding at speeds even faster than light's, is that true? If they are, then would this not contradict the very well accepted speed limit = 300,000 km/s?

Note: the question asked by a non physicist/astronomer/cosmologist.
 
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Desiree said:
I have heard and read that some galaxies are receding at speeds even faster than light's, is that true? If they are, then would this not contradict the very well accepted speed limit = 300,000 km/s?

Note: the question asked by a non physicist/astronomer/cosmologist.

most galaxies that we can see are receding faster than light, at the present moment (in CMB restframe time). and they were receding faster than light at the time they emitted the light which is now reaching us. this is typical.
true for anything with a redshift of 1.6 or more, if I remember right.

it doesn't contradict Special Relativity, it just means that the distance to the galaxy (and its surrounding locale) is increasing by a certain percentage each year----and if the distance is large enough that annual percentage increase will be more than one lightyear-----so the distance is growing faster than c.

that doesn't mean that the galaxy out there could catch up with and pass a photon of light!

THAT would be a violation of Special Rel.
figure. the photon out there in the same locale as the galaxy is ALSO receding along with everything else in the neighborhood.

If the photon is aimed away from us and it has a race with the galaxy there is no way the galaxy can catch it. Both are receding faster than c along with the whole locale, the whole neighborhood. PLUS the photon is moving at c, relative to the galaxy.

Special Rel is mainly useful as a local approximation. It applies to flat non-expanding spacetime. so over large scales, with a curved spacetime and expansion, the stuff about speed limit and addition of velocities doesn't apply in a straightforward fashion.

Remember: it is a physics law that nothing can ever catch up with and pass a photon of light
On the other hand, a whole locale with galaxies, photons of light, and the kitchen sink, can be receding at several times the speed c.

You might enjoy Siobhan Morgan's cosmology calculator, which gives you recession speeds for objects at various redshifts. She's an astronomy professor at a University in Iowa, has a lot of her course materials online. Or did the last time I looked. by putting the right redshift in the calculator you can easily get recession speeds of 2, 3, four or more times the speed of light.
http://www.uni.edu/morgans/ajjar/Cosmology/cosmos.html
this thread has some pointers about using the calculator
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1523913#post1523913
new url given in post #4
=============

there's a technical point: the CMB defines a universal concept of rest (when the CMB sky is approximately the same temperature in all directions, no Doppler hot spot)
and that provides an unambiguous meaning of simultaneity. a universal now. that all observers at CMB rest can agree on---at least to a good approximation.

that's the time standard I'm referring to when I say the galaxy is receding NOW, or was receding THEN, at some speed.

this universal standard time concept is built into the Hubble law, so when people use the Hubble parameter they are tacitly adopting universal time. The H parameter is the ratio of recession speed now, to distance now.

it is actually pretty intuitive, so not something to worry about. gives cosmologists a convenient working timeframe for normal everyday calculation and discussion.
 
Last edited:
marcus said:

that doesn't mean that the galaxy out there could catch up with and pass a photon of light!

THAT would be a violation of Special Rel.

Remember: it is a physics law that nothing can ever catch up with and pass a photon of light
On the other hand, a whole locale with galaxies, photons of light, and the kitchen sink, can be receding at several times the speed c.

Thanks marcus. Your info solved this riddle of speed limit to me.
 

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