Other Are too many students going into CompSci?

[Mark44]

Right now we have a thread here on FizzBuzz as a test of basic programming - not even computer science

To be fair, the thread I started on FizzBuzz really had little to do with FizzBuzz itself, but was instead used that interview problem to show how a functional programming language such as Erlang approached things in a completely different way from garden-variety procedural languages. It was not my intent at all to engender a discussion about FizzBuzz itself or implementations of it in more usual languages.

Regarding the comment from @phinds about the value of studying various arts and humanities subjects so as not to sound like an ignoramus -- that reminded me of the book "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences," by John Allen Paulos. In the book he made the point that many who were considered "intellectuals" were well-versed the arts and humanities, but whose knowledge of science and mathematics stopped well short of the state of the art circa 17th century in these areas. In short, people who were well-versed in mathematics and the sciences, but lacking in the arts and humanities were not deemed to be among the intelligentsia, but the same wasn't true when things were switched.

 

[phinds]

In the book he made the point that many who were considered "intellectuals" were well-versed the arts and humanities, but whose knowledge of science and mathematics stopped well short of the state of the art circa 17th century in these areas.

I think it's worse than that. People with either NO knowledge of STEM subjects or even more likely having a fair amount of incorrect knowledge in same, are considered "intellectuals" in many circles as long as they have a broad knowledge of humanities subjects.

I'm an engineer but am very well and widely read and have studied many non-stem subjects (e.g. art, history, literature, economics, business, etc.) during my many decades, but my "label" in some circles is automatically "engineer" (unspoken "ignoramus"), at least until I talk to someone.

I have, in many cases, found that the people who originally considered me an ignoramus were themselves pretty much totally ignorant of STEM subjects and, on rare occasions, even proud of their igorance.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

You learn non stem subjects to not bore hot chicks lol. Unless one wants to be a girl repellent for life.

 

[phinds]

You learn non stem subjects to not bore hot chicks lol

In your 20's maybe. What do you do the rest of your life?

 

[MidgetDwarf]

In your 20's maybe. What do you do the rest of your life?

Become the Dos Equis man... Duhhh

Stay thirsty my friends.

 

[gmax137]

Dos Equis man

sorry for the diversion but this one cracks me up

 

[CrysPhys]

You learn non stem subjects to not bore hot chicks lol. Unless one wants to be a girl repellent for life.

Are you insinuating that there is a dearth of attractive females eager to engage in stimulating conversations on STEM topics?

 

[StatGuy2000]

Whether there are "too many computer science students" really hinges on two questions:

1. Can students who are genuinely interested in the computer science field even be admitted into a suitable program, given the increasing demand for the degree, and limited numbers of faculty and teaching staff to teach the students?

2. Are the increasing number of students wishing to study computer science aligned with the actual number of available open positions?

With respect to #1 above, there are already numerous cases of universities using various "gatekeeping" methods such as higher tuition and limits on the number of students admitted/enrolled in CS programs. I suspect that these gatekeeping methods may perversely impact students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds or marginalized backgrounds, although admittedly I do not have any data or am aware of any studies assessing this.

As far as #2 above is concerned, we have already seen evidence with the number of layoffs at major tech firms like Google, Amazon, Meta (formerly Facebook), etc. that entry-level positions have become more competitive for new graduates. I would also suspect that a glut of CS graduates with limited positions may also serve to depress wages (if simplistic economic theories of supply/demand in the labour market is taken into account). So it would be interesting to see what impact the current economic climate may have on future CS enrolments in the US and Canada.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

Whether there are "too many computer science students" really hinges on two questions:

1. Can students who are genuinely interested in the computer science field even be admitted into a suitable program, given the increasing demand for the degree, and limited numbers of faculty and teaching staff to teach the students?

2. Are the increasing number of students wishing to study computer science aligned with the actual number of available open positions?

With respect to #1 above, there are already numerous cases of universities using various "gatekeeping" methods such as higher tuition and limits on the number of students admitted/enrolled in CS programs. I suspect that these gatekeeping methods may perversely impact students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds or marginalized backgrounds, although admittedly I do not have any data or have any studies assessing this.

As far as #2 above is concerned, we have already seen evidence with the number of layoffs at major tech firms like Google, Amazon, Meta (formerly Facebook), etc. that entry-level positions have become more competitive for new graduates. I would also suspect that a glut of CS graduates with limited positions may also serve to depress wages (if simplistic supply/demand in labour is taken into account). So it would be interesting to see what impact the current economic climate may have on future CS enrolments in the US and Canada.

Recently, my sisters kid was applying for colleges. Anyhow, I noticed that CS was an impacted major. Not sure if this was the case at Santa Cruz, but that is where he decided to go.

 

[swampwiz]

Whether there are "too many computer science students" really hinges on two questions:

1. Can students who are genuinely interested in the computer science field even be admitted into a suitable program, given the increasing demand for the degree, and limited numbers of faculty and teaching staff to teach the students?

2. Are the increasing number of students wishing to study computer science aligned with the actual number of available open positions?

With respect to #1 above, there are already numerous cases of universities using various "gatekeeping" methods such as higher tuition and limits on the number of students admitted/enrolled in CS programs. I suspect that these gatekeeping methods may perversely impact students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds or marginalized backgrounds, although admittedly I do not have any data or am aware of any studies assessing this.

As far as #2 above is concerned, we have already seen evidence with the number of layoffs at major tech firms like Google, Amazon, Meta (formerly Facebook), etc. that entry-level positions have become more competitive for new graduates. I would also suspect that a glut of CS graduates with limited positions may also serve to depress wages (if simplistic supply/demand in labour is taken into account). So it would be interesting to see what impact the current economic climate may have on future CS enrolments in the US and Canada.

Based on my cynical experience with the STEM jobs marketplace, I would say that there is a delay of a few years in feedback loop of student majors and the demand in the marketplace. My first experience was watching folks a few years my senior pour into Geology & Petroleum Engineering in the midst of the OPEC oil embargo - and resultant explosion in offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico of the late '70s; then as soon as one could tell the Saudis "get the Soviets out of Afghanistan by flooding the market with oil", the price of oil crashed, and the popularity of these programs fell like a sudden sinkhole in Florida. A decade or so later, in the midst of the Reagan arms buildup, Aerospace Engineering was popular; then as soon as the Soviet Empire collapsed, the era of Michael Douglas's D-Fense and his "Falling Down" was upon is, and the popularity of that program collapsed like an Eastern European currency (I was such an Aerospace Engineer - degree actually in Mechanical Engineering - and I managed to dodge the layoffs due simply to the fact that corporations hate hiring older folks).

The job market for programmers seems to have gone through a few cycles, mainly due to the rise of the new k3wl thing, and the job destruction of American programmers due to the various worker visas like the H1B, L1, etc. I have to think that the rise of the popularity, within the general population, of smartphones and social media, and also the steady increase in demand of programmers (up until recently), and as well the de-geeking of the profession, has gotten everyone wanting to be a programmer. I predict that the coming glut of CompSci students will be sucked up by corporations - with there just being more 40-somethings getting thrown out of work since corporations will have younger blood to suck on.

 

[CrysPhys]

Based on my cynical experience with the STEM jobs marketplace, I would say that there is a delay of a few years in feedback loop of student majors and the demand in the marketplace. My first experience was watching folks a few years my senior pour into Geology & Petroleum Engineering in the midst of the OPEC oil embargo - and resultant explosion in offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico of the late '70s; then as soon as one could tell the Saudis "get the Soviets out of Afghanistan by flooding the market with oil", the price of oil crashed, and the popularity of these programs fell like a sudden sinkhole in Florida.

Yes. My nephew was caught up in this scenario. He entered MIT as a freshman in the early 1980's. He decided to major in chemical engineering, mainly because of the strong job market in the wake of the OPEC oil crisis. By the time he graduated, however, the job market in this field had run dry. He pivoted, went to medical school, and has had a long, stable, successful career as an eye doctor.

My favorite example of the volatility in the job market is the InterNet Bubble of the 1990's. Even as of late 1999, there was a shortage of scientists and engineers to work on optoelectronic devices and networks to feed the massive bandwidth requirements of InterNet services. But just 6 months later, in mid 2000, there were danger signs. And by mid 2001, the Bubble had burst catastrophically, with major layoffs across the industry and some shining stars going dark.