Are You a Vegetarian? | Poll & Discussion

[Pythagorean]

 

[rootX]

I'm surprised that there are only 4 vegetarians.

I know that in recent years if I don't eat meat a few times a week, I feel terrible and I don't feel satisfied. When I was younger, it didn't bother me.

I guess it might because this thread is bit biased and contains bit harsh tone against vegies.

 

[micromass]

I guess it might because this thread is bit biased and contains bit harsh tone against vegies.

It does?? I didn't notice a hard tone here. A few jokes, but that should be ok...

 

[rootX]

It does?? I didn't notice a hard tone here. A few jokes, but that should be ok...

or you can call those jokes. But I didn't mean OP is biased but I was referring to the overall thread.

 

[Evo]

or you can call those jokes. But I didn't mean OP is biased but I was referring to the overall thread.

The OP (micro) is a vegetarian.

 

[rootX]

The OP (micro) is a vegetarian.

Yes I noticed it before but you missed my point. I was referring to like post # 9. Most of posts in this thread have been by non-vegetarians.

Could it be vegetarians participation rate in this poll was less than the non-vegetarians? Would it have been far more if first few posts in this thread were in favor of vegetarian than non-vegetarian diet?

 

[micromass]

Yes I noticed it before but you missed my point. I was referring to like post # 9. Most of posts in this thread have been by non-vegetarians.

Could it be vegetarians participation rate in this poll was less than the non-vegetarians? Would it have been far more if first few posts in this thread were in favor of vegetarian than non-vegetarian diet?

OK, Post 9 is a little hard. But it's his opinion. I actually agree with him. I think it's unhealthy for children not to eat meat (although I have no scientific evidence for that).

In any case, there have been some criticism of vegetarians in this thread. And I actually hoped there would be such criticism. I think it's a bit silly if a person can't handle that...

I'm also surprised by the low number of vegetarians here, though...

 

[rootX]

OK, Post 9 is a little hard. But it's his opinion. I actually agree with him. I think it's unhealthy for children not to eat meat (although I have no scientific evidence for that).

In any case, there have been some criticism of vegetarians in this thread. And I actually hoped there would be such criticism. I think it's a bit silly if a person can't handle that...

I'm also surprised by the low number of vegetarians here, though...

Even from past threads, I have generally noticed that PF is more non-vegetarian friendly (i.e. seems to have higher number of non-vegs).

 

[Evo]

Yes I noticed it before but you missed my point. I was referring to like post # 9. Most of posts in this thread have been by non-vegetarians.

Could it be vegetarians participation rate in this poll was less than the non-vegetarians? Would it have been far more if first few posts in this thread were in favor of vegetarian than non-vegetarian diet?

I hope not, I feel that all of the posts were meant to be funny. There is nothing wrong or unusual with a vegetarian diet, it's quite healthy. There are also ethical reasons to not want to eat an animal that has been killed.

It's vegan that is unhealthy and unsustainable without supplements. It also doesn't make sense, what is ethically wrong with an unfertilized egg? Or milk or butter or cheese? These things are part of a normal, healthy diet, unless you are allergic or lactose intolerant.

 

[lisab]

Actually, I wish I could be vegetarian. But like Evo, I don't feel 100% unless I eat meat.

 

[turbo]

Then there is environment, upbringing and cultural influences. There are whole swaths of society all around the world that could not thrive (or even survive) on a vegetarian diet, for instance. Native Americans used pemmican, which was readily adopted by trappers and traders because of its high protein/fat content.

The Inuit could not possibly have survived in the arctic without their reliance on seals, whales, etc. There is just not enough vegetation, nor a long enough growing season to allow them to gather such foods.

I'm sure that there are analogs from all over the planet. Humans transitioned to a more agrarian society relatively recently, with geographically-fixed populations, and that made subsisting on vegetables possible. Before such times (unless you lived in rich tropical zones with year-round availability of fruits and vegetables, IMO) it would have been tough to survive without eating meat.

There is no need for value-judgments in a discussion such as this. We are the product of our history, and there is no right or wrong, IMO.

 

[Pythagorean]

next up, "is vegetarianism genetic or social?"

then, "should vegetarians be allowed to marry each other?"

and finally, "please be sure to attend the vegetarian sensitivity training workshop this Friday."

thank you rootX, very progressive of you.

 

[turbo]

I was brought up in a hunter-gatherer mind-set. Yes, we had a vegetable garden for as far back as I can remember, and I helped in that. My mother loved it when I'd bring home a stringer of brook trout, and we certainly ate lots of deer and moose.

Guess what? I spent a lot more of my time picking wild strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, and apples (from abandoned farms) than I ever got to spend fishing for brook trout. The bulk (fruit/vegetable)stuff was a matter of priority for our freezer. When fiddleheads were in season, you'd be forgiven for thinking that my father and I were strict vegetarians, because we worked until dark picking the sprouting ostrich ferns after he got out of work. When we got home, we sat on the front step with my mother cleaning the chaff off the fiddleheads so that they could be blanched and frozen for the next winter's meals.

I have 3 sisters, each of us separated by a year. They were spoiled and lazy, so the reason that I could out-pick my mother in berries might well have been a function of how much time she had to spend keeping an eye on the slackers.

 

[Monique]

I'm sure that there are analogs from all over the planet. Humans transitioned to a more agrarian society relatively recently, with geographically-fixed populations, and that made subsisting on vegetables possible. Before such times (unless you lived in rich tropical zones with year-round availability of fruits and vegetables, IMO) it would have been tough to survive without eating meat.

I agree that meat is a nutritional source of food, an animal has put a lot of energy into making its tissues. However: most of us here on this forum do live in a society where a large variety of nutritional food is readily available. We don't all drink beer the whole day long, just because in the middle ages everyone had to do so.

 

[Pythagorean]

Monique, I'm curious though, should people just go vegetarian without being properly informed about nutritional practices? I've always had the impression you should have a nutritionalist or at least be really informed about how to get the proper ratios of proteins if you're not eating meat.

 

[Ra1n5had0w]

It has been shown that we humans do require certain nutrients in such high quantities as to necessitate the eating of animals - be that flesh from pigs or locusts, worms or whales. Of course, we're pretty clever animals, and we can synthesise these essential nutrients - but just in case the shops run out of vitamin B12 and the sun hides permanently behind a big black cloud, I would like to learn how to catch, kill and cook one fish. Only by honouring the animal in this way would I be prepared to eat it. I am vegan.

 

[Monique]

Monique, I'm curious though, should people just go vegetarian without being properly informed about nutritional practices? I've always had the impression you should have a nutritionalist or at least be really informed about how to get the proper ratios of proteins if you're not eating meat.

Everyone should be informed about healthy eating practices. I know meat-eaters who have a vitamin K deficiency. The finger can be pointed both ways. I'm not aware that the statement you make about ratio of proteins is true.

and we can synthesise these essential nutrients - but just in case the shops run out of vitamin B12

Do you know how easy it is to grow bacteria? As mentioned, that's (one of the sources) where vitamin B12 comes from.

 

[daveb]

I'm vegan, but not because I love animals. I just hate plants.

 

[daveb]

It also doesn't make sense, what is ethically wrong with an unfertilized egg? Or milk or butter or cheese? These things are part of a normal, healthy diet, unless you are allergic or lactose intolerant.

It is the factory farming processes that animals providing these items endure that ethical vegans object to. I'm more into it because of environmental reasons (though the ethical and health reasons are important too).

 

[Norman]

I am not vegetarian. I cannot imagine a plausible scenario where I would go that route. In addition, as turbo and Evo have discussed, I think understanding and appreciating the sacrifice of the animal makes for an important lesson for people. I know when I shot my first (and only) deer, I struggled a bit with the sacrifice of the animal. And butchering up game birds is a slightly sobering experience also. Though I felt less empathy for the birds than the deer.

My wife is reading an interesting book right now called Anticancer, in which it talks about the nutritional differences in the meat of grain fed and grass fed cattle. Turns out what your food eats matters a lot.

We eat mainly white meat (chicken, pork, fish) in our household. Every once in a while we have beef (usually hamburgers). My eldest, a 4 year old boy, is a voracious eater. But he completely prefers vegetables and fruits to meat. I fight with him weakly about his protein consumption at the dinner table. Our discussions are usually quite funny compared to the usual parent-child food discussion at the dinner table. It usually is me telling him he can have more peas or carrots or apples (or something else) if we would just eat his chicken (or whatever). It is a good parenting problem to have.

I have said for the last few years, I would not be surprised if he eventually becomes a vegetarian. He seems to genuinely not enjoy meat as much as vegetables and to a lesser extent fruit. It is just the way he is.

EDIT: on another note - you don't have to just buy your meat from a grocery store. In every place I have ever lived (in the US - did not think of it when I lived abroad), there have been nearby options for fresh meat. Usually they are smaller farms which are involved in organic farming. If you go with beef, you will also need a very large freezer, because you cannot just buy one steak. You typically need to buy at least 1/8 or more (much more typical to go with 1/4) of a steer.

 

[PAllen]

I'm not aware that the statement you make about ratio of proteins is true.

You've never heard about most vegetable proteins being incomplete by themselves, so you mix them? Rice and beans together gives complete, good quality protein. Each, by themselves, is low quality protein.

FYI: I was a strict vegetarian (lacto) for several years. I still factor this into my diet, because I go substantial periods where I happen to be vegetarian because I like eating that way.

 

[turbo]

In every place I have ever lived (in the US - did not think of it when I lived abroad), there have been nearby options for fresh meat. Usually they are smaller farms which are involved in organic farming. If you go with beef, you will also need a very large freezer, because you cannot just buy one steak. You typically need to buy at least 1/8 or more (much more typical to go with 1/4) of a steer.

My wife and I have two large chest freezers We need them to store all the produce, fruits, and berries that we'll use for the upcoming year, and to capitalize on sales on poultry and some meats. There is a farm nearby that specializes in grass-fed, open pastured Angus cattle, but we don't have to buy quarters to buy locally. They also sell in smaller quantities, though it doesn't seem all that small when you're driving home with a pickup bed half-full of steaks, roasts, and free-range chickens.

We are also very fortunate to have an artisan butcher shop/deli close by. They do custom cutting, and the beef and pork are locally raised and top quality. Except for ground meat and cheap roasts, my wife doesn't buy meats from the supermarket anymore. It's nice to be able to stop at the butcher's and find specials on skirt steaks, flank steaks, flat-iron steaks, chops etc, and "stock up" on 10-20# or so instead of buying boxes of beef. The also have a smokehouse and process their own bacon, hams, etc. A few years back, they moved their retail location to a place that is quite rural, but adjacent to a very busy intersection with lots of through-traffic. Business is booming, so we have little chance of losing this valuable source of good-quality food.

 

[daveb]

There are several grains, such as quinoa and amaranth, which are also complete proteins. And quinoa is yummy. Cook it in vegetable stock, and add some garam masala, roasted slivered almonds, and dried currants for a nice flavor). Serve it with a garlic crusted baked tofu and your favorite vegetable dish for a healthy meal.

 

[Pengwuino]

10% of PFers have no idea what vegetarianism is.

 

[Ra1n5had0w]

That sounds delicious. I love red quinoa. I think you've helped me decide upon what to have for dinner.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

10% of PFers have no idea what vegetarianism is.

True, but I've gotten a pretty good idea of what 10% of vegetarianism is.

 

[Oltz]

I do not eat any vegetables at all that are not stuck to a piece of meat (i.e. Peppers,onions in a fajita/cheese steak or pizza sauce). I eat Grains and starches (yes corn is not a vegetable) and the only fruit I eat is red delicious apples (maybe a dozen a year).

I think I am an extreme example of how little we really need to eat what food eats.

If it used to breath/move I will eat it.

But the army did ruin eggs for me

An egg is a waste of a good chicken

 

[Norman]

My wife and I have two large chest freezers We need them to store all the produce, fruits, and berries that we'll use for the upcoming year, and to capitalize on sales on poultry and some meats. There is a farm nearby that specializes in grass-fed, open pastured Angus cattle, but we don't have to buy quarters to buy locally. They also sell in smaller quantities, though it doesn't seem all that small when you're driving home with a pickup bed half-full of steaks, roasts, and free-range chickens.

We are also very fortunate to have an artisan butcher shop/deli close by. They do custom cutting, and the beef and pork are locally raised and top quality. Except for ground meat and cheap roasts, my wife doesn't buy meats from the supermarket anymore. It's nice to be able to stop at the butcher's and find specials on skirt steaks, flank steaks, flat-iron steaks, chops etc, and "stock up" on 10-20# or so instead of buying boxes of beef. The also have a smokehouse and process their own bacon, hams, etc. A few years back, they moved their retail location to a place that is quite rural, but adjacent to a very busy intersection with lots of through-traffic. Business is booming, so we have little chance of losing this valuable source of good-quality food.

I am so jealous turbo! I would do a public happy dance if I could just get a butcher not in a grocery store within 30 minutes of me... my area of Virginia is disappointing that way.

Especially after growing up and going to college in Wisconsin. We do have an organic, grass-fed cattle rancher about 45 minutes away right now - but they require a minimum of a quarter steer to be purchased. When I lived in Wisconsin, one of my best friends had a brother who was an rancher (grass fed only). So my friend and I would go in on a quarter steer every 6-9 months or so and his brother would have it butchered and drive it down to visit. It was so GOOD! Also you make a lot of friends in grad school when you hold a party and grill steaks for the whole department! Also, this was back when there was the whole mad cow scare in the UK and Canada (and all the worries in the US). I never worried because I knew the exact farm where my beef came from! I also miss the fun of having to figure out how to cook all the different cuts of meat. Sort of makes you become a better cook.

 

[BadBrain]

Of course, I'm a vegetarian!

Even more so if you accept us ovo-lacto (i.e., egg-eating and dairy-products-eating and drinking) vegetarians to be true vegetarians.

Even more so if you accept us ovo-lacto-burgero-choppo-steako-roasto-sausageo-barbequeo-Southern fried chickeno-vegetarians as true vegetarians!

Of course I'm a vegetarian!

According to the above definition!

Edit:

Hey, I'm a physicist, not a hippie!

And yet this is truly one of my favorite songs:



***

So, maybe I'm truly re-evaluating my entire life at my advanced age!

At my age, I think I've earned the right to do that!

Cheers!

 

[PAllen]

There are several grains, such as quinoa and amaranth, which are also complete proteins. And quinoa is yummy. Cook it in vegetable stock, and add some garam masala, roasted slivered almonds, and dried currants for a nice flavor). Serve it with a garlic crusted baked tofu and your favorite vegetable dish for a healthy meal.

I know. I said most. Neither of these grains was sold in the US when I was a strict vegetarian. Quinoa actually has serious adverse effect on the local economy in Peru, where hunger and malnutrition have increased because foreign demand for quinoa has made it unaffordable for the local population. However, I love quinoa, and eat it regularly.

The main point remains: a vegetarian needs to know more than a meat eater who eats a reasonable amount of vegetables.

 

[Monique]

You've never heard about most vegetable proteins being incomplete by themselves, so you mix them? Rice and beans together gives complete, good quality protein. Each, by themselves, is low quality protein.

No, that's not what I said/meant. Pythagorean suggested that you need a nutritionalist in order to figure out a vegetarian diet that will contain all 9 essential amino acids. A diet that includes soybean will already have all the essential amino acids, a varied diet will ensure the nutritional requirements are also met.

I once logged my food intake for several weeks and analyzed the supposed nutritional value, my intake of everything from minerals to vitamins to proteins was good (yes, including B12 and iron).

 

[daveb]

Yes, a varied vegan diet can give your body pretty much everything you need. I spoke with an evolutionary antropologist several years back (can't remember her name) who said that while humans didn't evolve needing to eat meat, we evolved with the capability to eat meat, so a strictly vegan diet, while doable, requires at least some knowledge (a lot is easy to find nowadays, I agree).

However, I think what turns most people off even trying a vegan diet is the lack of really good recipes that are quick and easy, but also tasty. Many people think of a diet of "vegetables and beans" when they hear veganism. What makes any diet worthwhile (IMO) is the taste, so having a handle on what spices go well together (as well as a well stocked spice pantry) makes all the difference.

It takes a bit of work (and time if you like making all your meals like I normally do), but I actually enjoy the taste of what I make, and I save money now (OK, I'd probably also save money if I cooked non-vegan meals also). The prepared vegan meals are way too expensive to eat those regularly.

Usually, I just take existing recipes and replace milk with unsweetened soymilk (for light dishes) or coconut milk (for those that use cream or whole milk), and meats with homemade seitan or store bought tofu (trying to make your own is a pain, I admit). Butter is replaced by Earth Balance (but only if the butter is for taste, rather than non-stick cooking).

 

[Evo]

Most vegetarians are probably more aware of what they are eating nutritionally than most people on a normal diet that have little to no clue of the nutritional value of their food.

 

[Evo]

Yes, a varied vegan diet can give your body pretty much everything you need. I spoke with an evolutionary antropologist several years back (can't remember her name) who said that while humans didn't evolve needing to eat meat, we evolved with the capability to eat meat, so a strictly vegan diet, while doable, requires at least some knowledge (a lot is easy to find nowadays, I agree).

However, I think what turns most people off even trying a vegan diet is the lack of really good recipes that are quick and easy, but also tasty. Many people think of a diet of "vegetables and beans" when they hear veganism. What makes any diet worthwhile (IMO) is the taste, so having a handle on what spices go well together (as well as a well stocked spice pantry) makes all the difference.

It takes a bit of work (and time if you like making all your meals like I normally do), but I actually enjoy the taste of what I make, and I save money now (OK, I'd probably also save money if I cooked non-vegan meals also). The prepared vegan meals are way too expensive to eat those regularly.

Usually, I just take existing recipes and replace milk with unsweetened soymilk (for light dishes) or coconut milk (for those that use cream or whole milk), and meats with homemade seitan or store bought tofu (trying to make your own is a pain, I admit). Butter is replaced by Earth Balance (but only if the butter is for taste, rather than non-stick cooking).

Why do you do it when it's not natural or healthy on it's own?

 

[daveb]

I started it mainly for environmental reasons, and the health benefits were secondary (at the time, I wasn't aware of the health benefits, to be honest).

 

[Evo]

I started it mainly for environmental reasons, and the health benefits were secondary (at the time, I wasn't aware of the health benefits, to be honest).

You did it because you didn't realize it was unhealthy?

People who follow a vegan lifestyle — strict vegetarians who try to
eat no meat or animal products of any kind — may increase their risk of
developing blood clots and atherosclerosis or “hardening of the arteries,” which are conditions that can lead to heart attacks and stroke. That’s the conclusion of a review of dozens of articles published on the biochemistry of
vegetarianism during the past 30 years. The article appeared in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (1).

http://nutrition.ucdavis.edu/perspectives/pastIssues/2011/1NP%20JanFeb11.pdf page 5

It does sound like you've done research and go to great lengths to try to get the nutrients you need. So if you enjoy it, go for it. Just be careful.

 

[Pythagorean]

No, that's not what I said/meant. Pythagorean suggested that you need a nutritionalist in order to figure out a vegetarian diet that will contain all 9 essential amino acids. A diet that includes soybean will already have all the essential amino acids, a varied diet will ensure the nutritional requirements are also met.

I once logged my food intake for several weeks and analyzed the supposed nutritional value, my intake of everything from minerals to vitamins to proteins was good (yes, including B12 and iron).

Well, I said "OR well informed" which you sound like you are. But you suggested that the same can be said for omnivores, which I agree with. I try to be as well-informed as I can, but sometimes it's not easy.

Speaking of which, have you heard much about the controversy with isoflavones in soy?

 

[Evo]

Jimmy Snyder alert!

Too much soy could lead to kidney stones

New research indicates that soybeans and soy-based foods, a staple in the diets of many health-conscious consumers, may promote kidney stones in those prone to the painful condition. The finding will be published in the September issue of the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, a peer-reviewed journal of the American Chemical Society, the world’s largest scientific society.

Under these guidelines, no soybean or soy-[based] food tested could be recommended for consumption by patients with a personal history of kidney stones,” she said

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-08/acs-tms082801.php

 

[Monique]

Well, I said "OR well informed" which you sound like you are.

My parents taught me common sense

Speaking of which, have you heard much about the controversy with isoflavones in soy?

Yes, I've heard of it in relation to a presentation on hypospadias. I did a quick Pubmed search at the time and found the relationship is only suggestive.

 

[daveb]

You did it because you didn't realize it was unhealthy?



http://nutrition.ucdavis.edu/perspectives/pastIssues/2011/1NP%20JanFeb11.pdf page 5

It does sound like you've done research and go to great lengths to try to get the nutrients you need. So if you enjoy it, go for it. Just be careful.

That's the first I've ever heard of a vegan diet being at higher risk for blood clots and hardened arteries. I'd want to look at the reviews Duo Li made, since he says two opposite things.

People who follow a vegan lifestyle — strict vegetarians who try to eat no meat or animal products of any kind — may increase their risk of developing blood clots and atherosclerosis or “hardening of the arteries,” which are conditions that can lead to heart attacks and stroke.

and later

Duo Li notes in the review that meat eaters are known for having a significantly higher combination of cardiovascular risk factors than vegetarians. Lower-risk vegans, however, may not be immune.

It seems like the ACS is saying two opposing things! Maybe they meant that vegans aren't immune, and that while they have reduced risk, they still have risk. Unfortunately, the ACS site doesn't mention what journal articles were reviewed.

 

[Evo]

This is the actual abstract which doesn't contain the confusing verbiage.

This review summarizes the effect of a habitual vegetarian diet on clinical complications in relation to chemistry and biochemistry. Omnivores have a significantly higher cluster of cardiovascular risk factors compared with vegetarians, including increased body mass index, waist to hip ratio, blood pressure, plasma total cholesterol (TC), triacylglycerol and LDL-C levels, serum lipoprotein(a) concentration, plasma factor VII activity, ratios of TC/HDL-C, LDL-C/HDL-C and TAG/HDL-C, and serum ferritin levels. Compared with omnivores, vegetarians, especially vegans, have lower serum vitamin B12 concentration and n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) levels in the tissue membrane phospholipids, which are associated with increased collagen and ADP stimulated ex vivo whole blood platelet aggregation, plasma 11-dehydrothromboxane B2, and homocysteine levels and decreased plasma HDL-C. This may be associated with an increased thrombotic and atherosclerotic risk. It is suggested that vegetarians, especially vegans, should increase their dietary n-3 PUFA and vitamin B12 intakes.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf103846u?tokenDomain=presspac&tokenAccess=presspac&forwardService=showFullText&journalCode=jafcau

If you can't download the entire study, this is the actual press release, it doesn't contain the contradiction.

http://portal.acs.org/portal/acs/corg/content?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=PP_ARTICLEMAIN&node_id=223&content_id=CNBP_026605&use_sec=true&sec_url_var=region1&__uuid=f2e3a818-52bd-4a70-94a2-21fd141a2760

 

[daveb]

Thanks!

 

[Pythagorean]

My parents taught me common sense

It must have been a lot of work for your science teachers to undo such a "virtue"!

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
-Einstein

 

[ArcanaNoir]

I recently decided to try being vegetarian. When I really thought about it, my diet was mostly vegetarian anyway. Mac and cheese and crackers and fruit snacks are all vegetarian anyway. So are spaghettios. Although the spaghettios are less fun without the hot dogs. Oh well, I guess I'll have to look elsewhere for fun. Like at my new flinstones vitamins...

 

[rootX]

I was vegetarian in my early age but now I don't like limiting my freedom. I would eat anything that my stomach can take. I am really interested in trying all kinds of meats.

 

[ArcanaNoir]

I wish it was like star trek and we had replicators that could make guilt-free kill-free meat.

[edit] and calorie/fat/cholesterol free meat.

 

[micromass]

I wish it was like star trek and we had replicators that could make guilt-free kill-free meat.

[edit] and calorie/fat/cholesterol free meat.

So true...

 

[ArcanaNoir]

So true...

oh and I forgot free-free meat. like, free of cost, as in, free. freeeeeeee. free food. I love when I can go outside and pick food off a tree. It's a great humanitarian feeling.Like, "hey, don't stress, the food is free!"

 

[rootX]

I wish it was like star trek and we had replicators that could make guilt-free kill-free meat.

[edit] and calorie/fat/cholesterol free meat.

Just wait a bit more! You probably missed my link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15402552, I posted a while ago in this thread.

You can develop all kinds of justifications to make yourself feel better and free yourself from guilt. Personally, I just choose ignorance.

 

[ArcanaNoir]

Just wait a bit more! You probably missed my link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15402552, I posted a while ago in this thread.

You can develop all kinds of justifications to make yourself feel better and free yourself from guilt. Personally, I just choose ignorance.

That's very interesting. What about that law prohibiting eating your experiments? That's silly. Food experiments are the best!