Medical Asperger's Syndrome: Myth or Reality?

[355113]

But people with HFA won't develop their language skills to as well as a skillful neurotypical. Those years missing will show up in some way.

Not necessarily true, some people just develop later. I was a late talker, but if you compare that to my current level, I tested at a verbal IQ of 150 a few weeks ago. (WAIS-IV)

But you are able to use emotional language well? Good at writing essays and even novels?

I'm not sure what you are referring to by "emotional language." I'm good with essays, but have never attempted a novel, nor do I intend to.

So it's the informal nature that you can't stand. Like parties? Do you go to them? What happens? Do you have a gf or bf?

Parties are a problem more because of sensory overload- too many people, too much noise, too much going on at once for me. Crowds are my greatest fear. What happens when I go to parties? I am generally uncomfortable, and usually leave at the earliest opportunity. No, I do not have a gf, and would not have a bf given that I am heterosexual.

What defense mechanisms have you developed over the years?

Avoidance of situations that are likely to involve large crowds. Also, to deal with bullying, I've developed a remarkably thick skin- it is close to impossible to actually offend me now. Most of my own issues are either related to sensory or social problems, and I've found that people in college seem to be more accepting than people in high school were. I can easily enough ignore those who aren't accepting, though. The sensory issues are harder to get around.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, not only that, but as it currently stands we have no significant means of differentiating the two even if they are separate conditions. As the two are currently defined, there isn't much relevant difference between them. I suppose you could argue that there is something wrong with the classification scheme and there actually are two separate conditions being referred to here, but those two conditions aren't going to neatly and exactly follow the current AS/HFA split. For what it's worth, I would disagree with such an assessment, but then I don't have all the answers on autism.

If I were interested in sharpening up my case for two distinct conditions I think I'd start by going back and reading all the original literature by Kanner and Asperger then see where that lead. At this point I'm just observing that the difference seems clear to me, and that I think the water has been muddied by years of inexperienced shrinks mistaking one for the other.

Not psychiatrists. Psychiatrists are idiots, more or less universally. Psychologists tend to be better, though that field still has its fair share of quacks.

My brother-in-law is an ER Doc. He said that in med school the meme is that the students with the highest grades are shunted into Neurology and those with the lowest grades are shunted into Psychiatry.

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I am curious to know if you feel ill at ease looking into people's eyes. If so, have you tried to figure out how to force yourself to do it so that you'll not stand out?

 

[355113]

I am curious to know if you feel ill at ease looking into people's eyes. If so, have you tried to figure out how to force yourself to do it so that you'll not stand out?

Yes, I do. I do so anyways when I want to avoid standing out; many people have to do things they do not enjoy.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Yes, I do. I do so anyways when I want to avoid standing out; many people have to do things they do not enjoy.

Indeed they do. The reason I ask is because, under a lot of circumstances for various reasons, anyone might feel ill at ease looking into someones eyes. However, I have a theory that the reason Asperger's people do not like it is very different than the reasons other people sometimes don't like it.

 

[Kurdt]

What is your theory?

 

[zoobyshoe]

What is your theory?

A statement of the theory might constitute a "leading" influence. It's a good theory: it can be disproved. However, since we're dealing with reported experience, I can only test the theory against descriptions of why this is unpleasant from people with AS who do not know what theory they might be supporting or disproving.

Whether or not someone might be willing to describe something unpleasant depends. They might not mind, or, it might be an imposition to ask them to examine and analyze something they don't want to think about. I'm in kind of a quandary.

 

[355113]

Indeed they do. The reason I ask is because, under a lot of circumstances for various reasons, anyone might feel ill at ease looking into someones eyes. However, I have a theory that the reason Asperger's people do not like it is very different than the reasons other people sometimes don't like it.

Hm. I don't know if I can help you there, in terms of why eye contact makes me feel uneasy. But I would note that not all AS people necessarily are more averse to eye contact. Rather, it is simply another aspect of nonverbal communication that is not understood by AS people. A friend of mine (who is also AS) makes eye contact, but does so idiosyncratically and somewhat inappropriately. (And yes, even though I'm not generally able to make "appropriate" eye contact, I am at least analytical enough to notice when others are or are not making normal eye contact)

 

[tgt]

Or training - men get a lot more 'normal' once married.

what do you mean?

The HFA and AS typically don't get married as their lack of social knowledge makes relationships hard. Its the normal people who usually get married and it isn't surprising that they get more normal after marriage.

 

[tgt]

Crowds are my greatest fear.

Have you ever gone to New Year Eve's fireworks?

Just say you went alone. Would it still bother you if you did not need to do anything social and people may not even notice you since its in the mid of the night?

 

[355113]

Have you ever gone to New Year Eve's fireworks?

Just say you went alone. Would it still bother you if you did not need to do anything social and people may not even notice you since its in the mid of the night?

I've been to fireworks displays before, but I don't think I have specifically for New Year's. Yes, I would still dislike it because of the noise and chaos that comes with a crowd. It's sensory overload in a bad way. Besides that, I don't like fireworks.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Hm. I don't know if I can help you there, in terms of why eye contact makes me feel uneasy. But I would note that not all AS people necessarily are more averse to eye contact. Rather, it is simply another aspect of nonverbal communication that is not understood by AS people. A friend of mine (who is also AS) makes eye contact, but does so idiosyncratically and somewhat inappropriately. (And yes, even though I'm not generally able to make "appropriate" eye contact, I am at least analytical enough to notice when others are or are not making normal eye contact)

That is interesting and true: you don't always need to know how to do something right to know that someone else is doing it wrong.

 

[355113]

That is interesting and true: you don't always need to know how to do something right to know that someone else is doing it wrong.

In the case of my friend, he tends to make a bit too much eye contact; he holds eye contact a second or two too long and too rigidly. It is readily apparent, though some people probably wouldn't notice that specifically and just get a general "socially-incompetent" vibe.

I've also noticed kindergarten/elementary school teachers, or really anyone trying to talk to someone they regard as an inferior or immature/incompetent, will tend to make excessive eye contact, and in a somewhat unnatural and forced manner. Presumably this is to attempt to command the other person's full attention (I guess a mental "lesser" is assumed to be unable to pay attention to multiple things at once), but it is exceedingly frustrating to deal with such people because with them I am unable to maintain any eye contact- it's simply too painful at that point. I've noticed this most frequently at my uni's disability office. This is typically combined with a slower, slightly higher-pitched voice than is typical for normal interaction, again signaling condescension towards the person being addressed.

Grr. So frustrating being able intellectually to analyze human interaction but not being able to usefully apply that knowledge.

 

[zoobyshoe]

In the case of my friend, he tends to make a bit too much eye contact; he holds eye contact a second or two too long and too rigidly. It is readily apparent, though some people probably wouldn't notice that specifically and just get a general "socially-incompetent" vibe.

I've also noticed kindergarten/elementary school teachers, or really anyone trying to talk to someone they regard as an inferior or immature/incompetent, will tend to make excessive eye contact, and in a somewhat unnatural and forced manner. Presumably this is to attempt to command the other person's full attention (I guess a mental "lesser" is assumed to be unable to pay attention to multiple things at once), but it is exceedingly frustrating to deal with such people because with them I am unable to maintain any eye contact- it's simply too painful at that point. I've noticed this most frequently at my uni's disability office. This is typically combined with a slower, slightly higher-pitched voice than is typical for normal interaction, again signaling condescension towards the person being addressed.

Grr. So frustrating being able intellectually to analyze human interaction but not being able to usefully apply that knowledge.

Yeah, your analysis is spot on. It's completely clear to you what's going on.

I have to ask, though, is all eye contact painful to some degree, not just when someone is being condescending and imperious?

 

[355113]

Yeah, your analysis is spot on. It's completely clear to you what's going on.

I have to ask, though, is all eye contact painful to some degree, not just when someone is being condescending and imperious?

It tends to be uncomfortable, yes, or at the least somewhat awkward. I believe this happens to NTs as well- looking at someone in the eye simply becomes awkward or uncomfortable after a few seconds. With me (I can't speak for everyone on the autistic spectrum) that just seems to happen much, much faster than it would for NTs. For most typical interaction, I'm able to pull it off without too much discomfort, and usually without anyone noticing anything different.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It tends to be uncomfortable, yes, or at the least somewhat awkward. I believe this happens to NTs as well- looking at someone in the eye simply becomes awkward or uncomfortable after a few seconds. With me (I can't speak for everyone on the autistic spectrum) that just seems to happen much, much faster than it would for NTs. For most typical interaction, I'm able to pull it off without too much discomfort, and usually without anyone noticing anything different.

It happens to everyone, yes, and can even happen a lot. However the average person can always name at least several people whose eyes they very much enjoy looking into with total comfort, free of awkwardness. This doesn't ever seem to be true for Autistic and AS people. However much they might enjoy someone's company, the direct gaze is always too much. Sound right?

 

[OmCheeto]

I'm sorry.

I've been seeing this Aspergers thread for the last few days pop up and I never bothered reading it until today. I see that it is a very old thread. One of those necroposter threads. Where dead threads come back to life. I think it is a funny word. Anyways, I read a bit of the book mentioned by pattylou; The Curious Incident...

I didn't read much of the story, but it seemed a bit like my birdy story, filled with strange things and strange people doing strange things.

Anyways, I've not read past the first page of this thread, so I don't know why it came back. I'm very tired right now and want to go to bed, and may read the whole thing in the morning.

But I just wanted to say, before I forgot, that I really dislike labels like Aspergers Syndrome. People are all different. Even animals are different.

Hmmmm... There's a man on tv right now making a funny face. The tv's on mute right now because I was listening to edith anne earlier, so I do not know what is so funny. But it is the comedy channel, so I guess it must be.

Good night.

 

[355113]

But I just wanted to say, before I forgot, that I really dislike labels like Aspergers Syndrome. People are all different. Even animals are different.

Of course people are all different. But some people show similar traits, and the purpose of labels like Asperger's Syndrome are useful to classify people who are different from what would be considered "typical" but share a number of similarities with each other. Putting people who have these traits in a similar category can be helpful when we have different needs than the general population.

When people say they dislike labels, what I think they mean is that they dislike stigmas that get attached to labels, even if they aren't personally making that connection. There needn't be any stigma attached to Asperger's: like almost all other human variations, it comes with its benefits and drawbacks, and doesn't make anyone a better or a worse person.

 

[355113]

It happens to everyone, yes, and can even happen a lot. However the average person can always name at least several people whose eyes they very much enjoy looking into with total comfort, free of awkwardness. This doesn't ever seem to be true for Autistic and AS people. However much they might enjoy someone's company, the direct gaze is always too much. Sound right?

More or less. Part of it is just the consciousness of "Oh, here's another aspect of nonverbal communication at which I utterly fail." And eye contact is a much more obvious one than most body language, so I still probably don't notice when I'm doing that wrong.

 

[The Dagda]

A lack of social development skills needs a name. It could have underlying physiological reasons, or you could just be socially inept though so perhaps it's wise to be extremely cautious when assigning labels. This has reminded me of the episode where they think Dr. House has Aspergers, finally they come to the conclusion that he's just basically an arse.

Houses misanthropy can be explained by is Sherlockesque insight into human behavioural characteristics, particularly body language. When you often know when people are lying, fakes probably make you extremely cynical. I do wonder though how many kids get diagnosed as Aspergers incorrectly, and if for some it is even necessary to label them.

 

[355113]

A lack of social development skills needs a name. It could have underlying physiological reasons, or you could just be socially inept though so perhaps it's wise to be extremely cautious when assigning labels. This has reminded me of the episode where they think Dr. House has Aspergers, finally they come to the conclusion that he's just basically an arse.

Houses misanthropy can be explained by is Sherlockesque insight into human behavioural characteristics, particularly body language. When you often know when people are lying, fakes probably make you extremely cynical. I do wonder though how many kids get diagnosed as Aspergers incorrectly, and if for some it is even necessary to label them.

I haven't seen that particular episode of House, though I have heard of it. House does not seem even remotely AS to me.

I think AS is more likely underdiagnosed than overdiagnosed right now, given that it's a relatively new diagnosis and not a whole ton of people have heard of it. I would never have heard of AS, much less been diagnosed with it, if not for my habit of wandering aimlessly through Wikipedia.

 

[Kurdt]

I find it funny when people say how come diagnoses in AS are increasing when people never used to get diagnosed, it must be a made up illness. The simple answer is that people have only been aware of it for less than a century and it is only recently that a significant number of medical staff have become aware of it. Couple that with the rise of the internet and the availability of information about it to the general public. Many people will seek a diagnosis where before they would have known little or nothing about it.

 

[355113]

I find it funny when people say how come diagnoses in AS are increasing when people never used to get diagnosed, it must be a made up illness. The simple answer is that people have only been aware of it for less than a century and it is only recently that a significant number of medical staff have become aware of it. Couple that with the rise of the internet and the availability of information about it to the general public. Many people will seek a diagnosis where before they would have known little or nothing about it.

Worse is when they try to say that we're all sick from mercury poisoning in the MMR shots.

 

[The Dagda]

Worse is when they try to say that we're all sick from mercury poisoning in the MMR shots.

That was debunked long ago.

 

[355113]

That was debunked long ago.

Doesn't stop people from saying it. It was ridiculous when it first came out, given that the MMR shot has never contained mercury and currently I think it's only flu vaccines that still have trace amounts of mercury as a preservative.

 

[The Dagda]

Doesn't stop people from saying it. It was ridiculous when it first came out, given that the MMR shot has never contained mercury and currently I think it's only flu vaccines that still have trace amounts of mercury as a preservative.

Not in the UK I asked last time I had one and they said we don't use mercury in flu shots.

 

[zoobyshoe]

More or less. Part of it is just the consciousness of "Oh, here's another aspect of nonverbal communication at which I utterly fail." And eye contact is a much more obvious one than most body language, so I still probably don't notice when I'm doing that wrong.

Hmmm. It sounds like it has become such an issue in your mind that failure becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

It'd be better if you go about it in the spirit of experimentation. Without being attached to the notions of success or failure, just be open and relaxed and experiment casually to see what results.

(It's funny: I was out with friends last night and because of this conversation, here, I was especially sensitive to, and analytical of, the dynamics of eye contact, and that focus started to screw up my ability to simply do it by instinct. Hehehehehe.)

 

[OmCheeto]

Alrighty then, I've finished reading the excerpt from the book. I may go pick it up today. I just have to know how the story ends. Last night I was so in tune with the young character that I thought surely I must have Aspergers, and must therefore have the disorder. Unfortunately, I took the http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html" , and discovered that not only do I not have it, I'm less autistic than the average person.

I read an interview with the author of the book, and he said some funny things at the end which made me feel much better about myself:

http://www.powells.com/authors/haddon.html"
Dave: The word autism appears several times on the book jacket of The Curious Incident. It wasn't until after I'd finished reading and I'd stumbled upon an article about you that I realized you never actually use the word in the novel. You never cite a specific disability or diagnosis to describe Christopher's condition. It's interesting what the marketing of a book can do to a reader's perception.

Haddon: And I must admit, recently I've been thinking that when the paperback comes out it would be kind of nice to lose all that from the cover. As several people have said in reviews, Christopher tells you all you need to know.

I understand why, when people are marketing a book, they want to give it a hook, why they want to explain things on the cover. But I like the idea of another version coming out with no labels on it whatsoever. One of the nicest reactions I've had to the book, although it was slightly eccentric, was from someone at a publisher that didn't eventually publish it. We were sitting around in their offices talking, and someone mentioned autism and Asperger's, and this woman said, "Oh, I didn't realize there was actually anything wrong with Christopher." I've always treasured that reaction.

It's kind of naïve but perfect. There is a very true sense in which there is something more wrong with the people around Christopher than with him. By the end of the book, although he hasn't profoundly changed in a way, he hasn't changed at all he has managed to restore order to his life. From his perspective, that's been a victory. But if you look at the people around him, they're still struggling with these huge problems. Their story is going to go on. They're the people who in some sense have something wrong with them.

Perhaps normal people suffer from Regpersa's syndrome.

hmmm... looks almost like "Regular Person's" syndrome.

Ick. There's way too many people suffering from that disorder. I wonder if there's a cure, or if through counseling, they might become more unique.

 

[zoobyshoe]

A lack of social development skills needs a name. It could have underlying physiological reasons, or you could just be socially inept though so perhaps it's wise to be extremely cautious when assigning labels. This has reminded me of the episode where they think Dr. House has Aspergers, finally they come to the conclusion that he's just basically an arse.

Houses misanthropy can be explained by is Sherlockesque insight into human behavioural characteristics, particularly body language. When you often know when people are lying, fakes probably make you extremely cynical. I do wonder though how many kids get diagnosed as Aspergers incorrectly, and if for some it is even necessary to label them.

House's problem is that he is in constant pain from his leg. Everyone forgets this. House himself forgets this. If you've ever had any kind of prolonged physical pain you know that your patience eventually erodes down to the flinty, sharp bedrock.

 

[The Dagda]

House's problem is that he is in constant pain from his leg. Everyone forgets this. House himself forgets this. If you've ever had any kind of prolonged physical pain you know that your patience eventually erodes down to the flinty, sharp bedrock.

This is true but as it turns out house is still an arse without the pain, and always was, let's not forget how he becomes when he's denied medication as well.

I think when you are just that intuitive and clever, you learn to read people by understanding human nature. It is hard to detach yourself from just how the minions are on Earth. I may not be a colossal genius like House, but I certainly understand his demeanour. I am more like him than I care to admit, with that job as he sees it (and Dr's are often wrapped up in outdoing each other) that gives House the right to have an arrogant personality because he is simply the best. If he was a potential chess grandmaster who never won a competition, things may be different. Of course it is fiction but it succeeds because there are people like that in those positions in the world, and some of us have met them.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is true but as it turns out house is still an arse without the pain, and always was, let's not forget how he becomes when he's denied medication as well.

I think when you are just that intuitive and clever, you learn to read people by understanding human nature. It is hard to detach yourself from just how the minions are on Earth. I may not be a colossal genius like House, but I certainly understand his demeanour. I am more like him than I care to admit, with that job as he sees it (and Dr's are often wrapped up in outdoing each other) that gives House the right to have an arrogant personality because he is simply the best. If he was a potential chess grandmaster who never won a competition, things may be different. Of course it is fiction but it succeeds because there are people like that in those positions in the world, and some of us have met them.

Can the self-serving, I'm-not-fit-to-tie-his-bootlace-but-I-want-to-grow-up-to-be-him song and dance and get me some vicadin, suck up.