At which p-adic fields does the equation have no rational solution?

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter evinda
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Fields Rational
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the equation $3x^2+5y^2-7z^2=0$ and whether it has non-trivial solutions in rational numbers $\mathbb{Q}$ and in various p-adic fields. Participants explore the conditions under which the equation may or may not have solutions, referencing the Hilbert symbol and congruences modulo different primes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested, Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that the equation does not have non-trivial solutions in $\mathbb{Q}$ based on the analysis for $p=3$.
  • Another participant suggests using the Hilbert symbol to determine if there are non-trivial solutions in $\mathbb{Q}_p$, indicating that if $\left( \tfrac{3}{7},\tfrac{5}{7}\right)_p = 1$, a solution exists.
  • A later reply emphasizes the importance of checking specific primes (3, 5, 7, and $\infty$) for the Hilbert symbol, suggesting that these are the only relevant primes for this problem.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the Hilbert symbol and seeks alternative methods to analyze the problem.
  • Another participant raises a question about how to approach the problem for primes greater than 7, indicating a gap in the discussion regarding larger primes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need to analyze the equation using both congruences and the Hilbert symbol, but there is no consensus on the methods or the implications for primes greater than 7. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the complete set of p-adic fields where the equation may lack rational solutions.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the properties of the Hilbert symbol and the relevance of specific primes are not fully explored, leaving open questions about the approach for larger primes and the implications of the findings for the original equation.

evinda
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,741
Reaction score
0
Hello! (Wave)I have to check if the equation $3x^2+5y^2-7z^2=0$ has a non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}$. If it has, I have to find at least one. If it doesn't have, I have to find at which p-adic fields it has no rational solution.Theorem:

We suppose that $a,b,c \in \mathbb{Z}, (a,b)=(b,c)=(a,c)=1$.

$abc$ is square-free. Then, the equation $ax^2+by^2+cz^2=0$ has a non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q} \Leftrightarrow$



  1. $a,b,c$ do not have the same sign.
  2. $\forall p \in \mathbb{P} \setminus \{ 2 \}, p \mid a$, $\exists r \in \mathbb{Z}$ such that $b+r^2c \equiv 0 \pmod p$ and similar congruence for the primes $p \in \mathbb{P} \setminus \{ 2 \}$, for which $p \mid b$ or $p \mid c$.
  3. If $a,b,c$ are all odd, then there are two of $a,b,c$, so that their sum is divided by $4$.
  4. If $a$ even, then $b+c$ or $a+b+c$ is divisible by $8$.
    Similar, if $b$ or $c$ even.

The first sentence is satisfied.

For the second one:

$$p=3:$$

$$5+x^2(-7) \equiv 0 \pmod 3 \Rightarrow x^2 \equiv 2 \mod 3$$
$$\left ( \frac{2}{3} \right)=-1$$So, we see that the equation hasn't non-trivial solutions in $\mathbb{Q}$.

But.. how can we check at which p-adic fields the equation has no rational solution?
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
Divide out and write,
$$ \tfrac{3}{7}x^2 + \tfrac{5}{7}y^2 - z^2 = 0 $$
If there is a non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}_p$ it means that the Hilbert symbol, $\left( \tfrac{3}{7},\tfrac{5}{7}\right)_p = 1$. Now you need to compute the Hilbert symbol for various primes $p$.

Now the Hilbert symbol can be multiplied through by a square without changing it. So we can clear denominators by multiplying through by $7^2$ and get $(21,35)_p=1$. Really the only primes you need to check are $p=3,5,7,\infty$. Do you understand why?
 
ThePerfectHacker said:
Divide out and write,
$$ \tfrac{3}{7}x^2 + \tfrac{5}{7}y^2 - z^2 = 0 $$
If there is a non-trivial solution in $\mathbb{Q}_p$ it means that the Hilbert symbol, $\left( \tfrac{3}{7},\tfrac{5}{7}\right)_p = 1$. Now you need to compute the Hilbert symbol for various primes $p$.

Now the Hilbert symbol can be multiplied through by a square without changing it. So we can clear denominators by multiplying through by $7^2$ and get $(21,35)_p=1$. Really the only primes you need to check are $p=3,5,7,\infty$. Do you understand why?

I haven't get taught the Hilbert symbol. (Worried) How else could we do this? (Thinking)
 
For $p=2,3,5,7$, we can write the congruence modulo $p$ and we can see if there is a solution or not.

But, what can we do for $p>7$ ? (Thinking)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
614
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
6K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K