B Atmospheric refraction and "rainbow"

AI Thread Summary
Atmospheric refraction alters the perceived position of the Sun but does not create a rainbow effect because the refractive index of air is nearly constant across visible wavelengths. While refraction bends light, it does not significantly separate different wavelengths as seen in water or glass. The discussion also clarifies that photons of different wavelengths do not follow distinct paths due to atmospheric refraction, contradicting the idea that they should. The visibility of chromatic effects, such as the "green flash," is limited due to atmospheric attenuation, particularly at the blue end of the spectrum. Overall, atmospheric refraction's impact is minimal compared to materials like glass, making the rainbow effect negligible in the atmosphere.
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"Due to atmospheric refraction the position of Sun in the sky is different from its actual position."

But why doesn't Sun look like a rainbow in that case?
Different wavelength should follow different paths in atmosphere - no?

Why Venus does not look like a sequence of colours perpendicular to horizon?

Thanks.
GelzahIWoAABQiF.jpeg
 
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Refraction merely bends the light path. You only get a rainbow effect if the refraction is different at different wavelengths, so the components of white light bend different amounts and spread out into separate colours. This happens with glass and water, but the refractive index of air is only slightly different from 1 and doesn't vary much across visible wavelengths.
 
Ibix said:
Refraction merely bends the light path. You only get a rainbow effect if the refraction is different at different wavelengths, so the components of white light bend different amounts and spread out into separate colours. This happens with glass and water, but the refractive index of air is only slightly different from 1 and doesn't vary much across visible wavelengths.
Do photons follow different paths due to atmospheric refraction or not?
If Sun can be visible both from southern pole and northern pole at the same time, then refraction is at least enough to achieve that - no?
And if that's true then photons of different wavelength should follow different paths - no?

If photons can follow the same path despite refraction, then how is "Einstein ring" - evidence of spacetime curvature?

Thanks.
 
zasvitim said:
Do photons follow different paths due to atmospheric refraction or not?
Yes.
zasvitim said:
If Sun can be visible both from southern pole and northern pole at the same time, then refraction is at least enough to achieve that - no?
Yes.
zasvitim said:
And if that's true then photons of different wavelength should follow different paths - no?
No, as already noted.
zasvitim said:
If photons can follow the same path despite refraction, then how is "Einstein ring" - evidence of spacetime curvature?
That has nothing to do with refraction in materials.
 
>> Do photons follow different paths due to atmospheric refraction or not?
>Yes
>>photons of different wavelength should follow different paths - no?
>No
these are 2 opposite answers to the same question
 
zasvitim said:
these are 2 opposite answers to the same question
Not as I understand your questions. Perhaps you could restate them in different words.
 
Or, by "[d]o photons follow different paths due to atmospheric refraction or not", did you mean "[d]o photons of different wavelengths follow different paths due to atmospheric refraction or not"? If that's what you meant then the answer is no they don't, not in optical frequencies. The refractive index of air is the same (or at least the variation is so tiny as to be practically constant) for all optical frequencies.
 
Also worth noting that photons don't have paths in a classical sense. You're talking about classical wave theory here - probably best to leave photons out of it.
 
  • #10
Ibix said:
The refractive index of air is the same (or at least the variation is so tiny as to be practically constant) for all optical frequencies.
But why is that?
 
  • #12
zasvitim said:
But why is that?
Basically because it barely interacts at all with light. Look at the link Snorkack provided - the numbers only differ from 1 on the fourth decimal place, and the variation across the optical frequencies is on the fifth decimal place.

In general, refractive index variation is to do with the electronic structure of the material. That's responsible for pretty much all optical properties (colour, reflctivity, transparency etc) that aren't explained by surface roughness. It's a complex topic if you want to get into the details - I never have.
 
  • #13
Abbe number 90 means that when Sun is refracted up by 35 minutes - on horizon - the wavelengths that define the Abbe number are separated by 35 minutes/90, which is about 23 seconds. Too little to be separated by naked eye.
But enough to be separated by horizon. That is called "green flash".
 
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  • #14
snorkack said:
Dispersion of light is due to variation in refractive index. This link tells us that we can 'only just' observe the refraction of the atmosphere (Venus on a 'good night'). Glass has a refractive index of around 1.5 and that varies by 10% or more. That will produce easily noticeable chromatic aberration.
1737983644255.png

You have to go to a lot of trouble to get any dispersive effects in the atmosphere because the refractive index has a spread of a fraction of a percent.
 
  • #15
zasvitim said:
"Due to atmospheric refraction the position of Sun in the sky is different from its actual position."
As has been pointed out, chromatic effects are irrelevant. What is more relevant is to adjust the tracking rate required to keep a star (apparently) motionless in the field of view of a camera. E.S. King worked this out ("King tracking rate"), it's a slight modification to the sidereal tracking rate.

https://canburytech.net/DriftAlign/DriftAlign_3.html
https://www.bbastrodesigns.com/equatTrackingRatesCalc.html
 
  • #16
sophiecentaur said:
Dispersion of light is due to variation in refractive index. This link tells us that we can 'only just' observe the refraction of the atmosphere (Venus on a 'good night'). Glass has a refractive index of around 1.5 and that varies by 10% or more. That will produce easily noticeable chromatic aberration.
View attachment 356418
Is this an actual photo, or a drawing?
For some realistic Abbe number estimates, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbe_number#/media/File:Abbe_number_calculation.svg
 
  • #18
russ_watters said:
Reiterating and expanding on this: yes, the "rainbow effect" happens, but it is small, so you only notice it if you are looking at an object under high magnification:

View attachment 356428

[edit] That's Venus, not the moon.
That looks like chromatic aberration caused by the optics, not the atmosphere.
 
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  • #19
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  • #20
snorkack said:
Is this an actual photo, or a drawing?
It's a 'picture' of a recognisable effect. I think we all recognise the amount of angular separation in glass, whichever.
 
  • #21
Andy Resnick said:
What is more relevant is to adjust the tracking rate required to keep a star (apparently) motionless in the field of view of a camera.
Additional 'guiding' is necessary for long exposures. It can give great improvements in image quality.
 
  • #22
Another thing which limits visibility of dispersion in atmosphere: most of the width of a rainbow is in the blue/violet end. The atmospheric refraction, and therefore dispersion, is largest near horizon. But near horizon, atmosphere has strong attenuation, especially for blue end of spectrum. Which is why the green flash is usually (but not always) green.
Actually, even green flash tends to require mirage to magnify it, and does not simply happen at every evening and morning.
 
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  • #23
snorkack said:
Another thing which limits visibility of dispersion in atmosphere: most of the width of a rainbow is in the blue/violet end.
The rainbow is an effect due to the refractive index of water and not the air around the droplets. In a vacuum (nonsense I know because the drops would evaporate but . . . . .) a rainbow would still form and the geometry would change very very little.
snorkack said:
, and therefore diffraction
That term is strictly correct, as it is with all optics but not usually applied to large apertures or highly irregular structures like droplets in clouds. Imo it's just a distraction here.
 
  • #24
sophiecentaur said:
The rainbow is an effect due to the refractive index of water and not the air around the droplets. In a vacuum (nonsense I know because the drops would evaporate but . . . . .) a rainbow would still form and the geometry would change very very little.
Actually, the rainbow is a poor example. Because the spherical water drops, unlike prisms (or atmosphere!), do not refract a single wavelength to a single line. As can be seen in monochromatic red rainbows - these still and more conspicuously have the contrast between bright interior and dark exterior of the first rainbow (and dark interior and bright exterior of the second).
Consider the Cauchy formula:
n=A+B/λ2
Consider the definition of Abbe number:
Vd=(nd-1)/(nF-nC)
The indices refer to Fraunhofer lines.
Fraunhofer F is at 486 nm; C is at 656 nm and d at 589 nm.
What is the factor 1/λ2 for these lines, in terms of inverse square μm?
For Fraunhofer C, it is 10002/6562=2,32
For Fraunhofer F, it is 10002/4862=4,23
What is visible light?
From my university spectroscopy lesson back in 1990s, I distinctly recall seeing spectral lines to the violet of 400 nm (don´t now recall exact number or substance). If we call Fraunhofer K visible, at 393 nm, then it is at the position of 10002/3932=6,47. On the red edge, let´s assume Fraunhofer A is visible at 759 nm. Then it is at the position of 10002/7592=1,74
For a refractor which is close to Cauchy formula, the relative width of spectrum from Fraunhofer K to Fraunhofer F, 393 to 486 nm, the violets and blues, is 6,47-4,23=2,24 units of 1/μm2; the relative width of spectrum from Fraunhofer F to A, 486 to 759 nm, covering all of greens, yellows, oranges, reds is 4,23-1,74=2,49 units.
Note that this is relative width of parts of spectrum. The geometry of the refractor and the Cauchy formula coefficients A and B cancel out because they are shared by all parts of spectrum
I admit that I was mistaken that "most" of the rainbow width is in "blue", unless blue is counted redwards of 486 nm. It would be actually true if blue extends, to, say, round 500 nm. But my point is that Cauchy formula compresses the red part of spectrum and stretches out the blue/violet part.
"Rainbow" is problematic because as I mentioned, the refracted light of rainbow has the long tail to the interior. Which means that the extreme violet colour of a rainbow, inherently dim for eye, is overlapped by the bright background of other colours.

The other point about the width of spectrum is that the violets and blues are most strongly attenuated. Which means that, for example, at the end of the rainbow the inner violet/blue colours of rainbow vanish. In case of strong attenuation, the whole rainbow may be monochromatic red.

But atmospheric refraction?
The atmospheric refraction is strongest near horizon and much weaker well above the horizon.
But near horizon where the atmospheric rainbow should be widest, the blues which make up most of the rainbow width are attenuated away. Well above the horizon, where the blue does get transmitted, the whole rainbow is narrower. Either case, too narrow to resolve by naked eye.
 
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  • #25
snorkack said:
Actually, the rainbow is a poor example.
Oh yes, it certainly is because the non-coloured arcs are sourced from the whole range of droplets. That's why you get the dark part inside the bow - because of the wavelengths that are directed down to the ground.

And, of course, the colours are all very de-saturated by the light coming from other directions in the atmosphere. Our brains are a real pushover for pretty colours and they see what they want to see.

That's far too hard to explain to schoolkids. I'm glad I don't teach any more 'cos I'd be too embarrassed to tell them the noddy version.
 
  • #26
russ_watters said:
Maybe they are similar, but this is a real/known thing in astrophotography. Most astro image stacking/editing software has feature for "RGB Align" and there's even an adjustable prism for fixing it in the optics:

https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/astrophotography/atmospheric-dispersion-corrector
I've not heard of ADCs, thanks. Have/do you use one? It seems like those devices (at least the ones I saw) require constant adjustment as the night goes on and the altitude changes....?
 
  • #27
Andy Resnick said:
I've not heard of ADCs, thanks. Have/do you use one? It seems like those devices (at least the ones I saw) require constant adjustment as the night goes on and the altitude changes....?
I bought one a few months ago, used it once so far. They only matter when the planet is relatively low and magnification high. Right now Jupiter and Mars are high, so I don't need it. I'm going to try Venus in the next month or so, so I'll use it then.

I had always thought that doing an rgb align in software would fix the issue but apparently you get a lot better results for lower in the sky objects with it.
 
  • #28
sophiecentaur said:
That's far too hard to explain to schoolkids. I'm glad I don't teach any more 'cos I'd be too embarrassed to tell them the noddy version.
I think a recent attempt by Veritasium is the best I've seen. The subject is very rich indeed at every level

 
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