Atomic Orbitals: Spherical vs. Non-Spherical

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around atomic orbitals, specifically comparing spherical (s orbitals) and non-spherical (p, d, f orbitals) shapes. Participants explore the nature of electron probability clouds, wave-particle duality, and the implications of electron spin and angular momentum in atomic structure.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that s orbitals are spherical and questions the nature of p orbitals, suggesting they should also exhibit a form of spin due to their non-spherical shape.
  • Another participant proposes visualizing electrons as waves rather than particles, referencing wave-particle duality as a helpful perspective.
  • A participant describes the characteristics of different orbitals, emphasizing the symmetry of s orbitals and the lobular structure of p, d, and f orbitals.
  • Concerns are raised about the concept of electrons spinning around the nucleus, with a clarification that electrons do not spin in classical terms but possess orbital and intrinsic angular momentum.
  • Discussion includes the significance of quantum numbers (l and ml) in determining the shape and orientation of orbitals, particularly in the presence of external fields.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of electron behavior and the implications of angular momentum. There is no consensus on whether the probability clouds of electrons should be considered to "spin" in a classical sense, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretation of electron dynamics.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various aspects of quantum mechanics, including angular momentum and quantum numbers, but the discussion does not resolve the complexities surrounding these concepts or their implications for atomic structure.

Garvit Goel
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atomic orbitals, what i just know about them is they are the regions around the nucleus where the probability of finding an electron is high and that is OK with s orbital because it is spherical.
but when an electron in p orbital spins the probability of finding an electron should spin accordingly and therefore p orbital should also spin because it is not spherical!
can you please suggest me something regarding this matter.
 
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How about this; Try thinking of the electron as a wave instead of a dot sized particle that's moving. Think of the electron cloud kinda like a wavy blob of water. I find this helps me a lot. Its the old argument of wave-particle duality :)

John.
 
The orbital can best be described as a probability cloud; the electrons are more likely in one place than another.
According to the book; The Elements, by Theodore Gray, there are 4 types of orbitals.
The S orbital: The S orbital is completely symmetrical, the electrons are just as likely to be in one place as another.
The P orbital: The P orbital can be visualized as two balls, between them is the nucleus, the electrons are most likely to be in the two "balls" and less likely to be outside of them.
The D orbital: The D orbital looks like four lobes stemming out from the nucleus.
The F orbital: The F orbital is the same as the D orbital exept that it has six lobes instead of four.
 
Mr. Forte said:
The orbital can best be described as a probability cloud; the electrons are more likely in one place than another.
According to the book; The Elements, by Theodore Gray, there are 4 types of orbitals.
The S orbital: The S orbital is completely symmetrical, the electrons are just as likely to be in one place as another.
The P orbital: The P orbital can be visualized as two balls, between them is the nucleus, the electrons are most likely to be in the two "balls" and less likely to be outside of them.
The D orbital: The D orbital looks like four lobes stemming out from the nucleus.
The F orbital: The F orbital is the same as the D orbital exept that it has six lobes instead of four.
thanks Mr. Forte.
But what my problem is that the electrones spin around the nucleus. And when these electornes spin these probability clouds around the nucleus must also spin?
 
Garvit Goel said:
thanks Mr. Forte.
But what my problem is that the electrones spin around the nucleus. And when these electornes spin these probability clouds around the nucleus must also spin?

1. Electrons do not spin around the nucleus.

2. Electrons have orbital angular momentum, which is similar to the angular momentum that would be associated with a particle in a classical orbit. Of course, this is not the correct physical picture, since electrons are quantum particles. Therefore, one of the quantum numbers associated with electrons in atoms (the l quantum number), specifies the orbital angular momentum of the state.

3. The projection of the orbital angular momentum on a axis of quantization (usually the z-axis by convention), is also a conserved quantity in single-electron atoms, and thus we associate a quantum number with it as well (ml). The value of this quantum number tells us the spatial orientation of the orbital with respect to the axis of quantization.

4. Electrons have spin angular momentum, which is intrinsic angular momentum that we know they must possesses in order to account for their observed behavior (i.e. the Pauli exclusion principle). One of the quantum numbers for an electron in an atom (ms), tell us the projection of that angular momentum on the axis of quantization (usually the z-axis).

The point that has the most relevance to your question (I think) is number 3. The values of l and ml tell you the shape and orientation of the orbital with respect to the axis of quantization. In isotropic space, the choice of axis is arbitrary, but if there is an anisotropic potential present (e.g. a magnetic field in the labrotory fixed frame), then that becomes the most logical choice for the quantization axis. This provides the basis for the Zeeman splitting of the ml levels by a magnetic field.
 

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