Atomic Vibration: Proving & Testing Theory

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter bensonsearch
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Atomic Vibration
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of atomic and molecular vibrations and their potential effects on breaking bonds within atoms and molecules. Participants explore the theoretical implications of matching vibrations to disrupt atomic structures and consider practical testing methods for these ideas.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that all atoms have specific vibrations, and matching or opposing these vibrations could break atomic bonds.
  • Another participant challenges the notion that atoms are held together by bonds, clarifying that nuclear forces and electromagnetic forces are responsible for atomic stability.
  • Discussion includes the idea that breaking atomic bonds requires significant energy, and that vibrations may only affect molecular interactions rather than atomic integrity.
  • Participants debate the feasibility of breaking nuclei apart, with references to nuclear reactors and neutron capture as methods of inducing nuclear fission.
  • Questions arise about the nature of forces, with some participants asserting that forces cannot be canceled but can be neutralized under certain conditions.
  • There is speculation about whether specific vibrations or sound frequencies could disintegrate materials into their base components, with some suggesting that this is possible under certain conditions.
  • Ultrasonic drilling is mentioned as a technology that disrupts molecular bonds without affecting atomic nuclei, indicating a practical application of high-frequency vibrations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of atomic bonds and the role of vibrations in breaking them. While some agree that vibrations can affect molecular bonds, there is no consensus on the implications for atomic structures or the specific conditions required for such effects.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their understanding of the strong force and its implications, as well as the specific conditions under which vibrations might affect molecular integrity. The discussion remains open-ended regarding the exact mechanisms and energy requirements involved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring atomic and molecular physics, materials science, and applications of ultrasonic technology in engineering and research.

bensonsearch
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Hi All,

I have a thought that I had a while ago and wanted some advise/feedback etc

My thought was as follows:

All atoms have their own specific vibration, if one was able to match this vibration or its oppisite then the bonds that hold this atom together would break apart.

Kind of like two standing waves cancelling each other out.

I wanted to know how would i prove this to write in a paper and how could i test it works.

Thanx

Nick
 
Physics news on Phys.org
bensonsearch said:
All atoms have their own specific vibration, if one was able to match this vibration or its oppisite then the bonds that hold this atom together would break apart.
Atoms aren't held together by bonds. The nucleus is held together by nuclear forces. The electrons and nucleus are kept together by the coulomb force. I am not sure what you mean by atoms having their own specific vibration. Perhaps you meant "molecules" rather than "atoms".

AM
 
The atom is held together due to the interaction of the strong force, which works between protons and neutrons in the nucleus, and the electromagnetic force which causes protons and electrons to attract each other. The only way to break this "bond" is to give the atom enough energy so that the electron has too much energy to remain bound to atom. The amount of energy needed increases as you take more and more electrons out of an atom.

For the nucleus, it is nearly impossible to rip it apart except by smashing other nucleons into it. We have no way to cause a nucleus to break apart currently.

The vibrations of an atom have nothing to do with it. Matching or not matching the vibrations would only affect the interactions of those atoms with others.
 
Drakkith said:
For the nucleus, it is nearly impossible to rip it apart except by smashing other nucleons into it. We have no way to cause a nucleus to break apart currently.
What about a conventional nuclear reactor using thermal (slow) neutron capture to cause a U235 nucleus to break apart?

AM
 
Andrew Mason said:
What about a conventional nuclear reactor using thermal (slow) neutron capture to cause a U235 nucleus to break apart?

AM

U235 is already unstable and will eventually decay. We only use the neutrons to speed this up. In any case, this still is "smashing a nucleon" into it in my book. :smile:

Also, I think i meant "No OTHER way to cause a nucleus to break apart currently" in my previous post.
 
Thanx heaps for your answers, questions thou, if we were to talk about molecules would that make a differance?

Also do we know what causes the strong force? as all forces can be canceled out right?

thanx again
 
Not sure what you mean by "cancel"
One can not cancel gravity. And one can not cancel the negative charge of an electron, per se, without changing it to a positron and even then a charge(this case positive) remains.
Vibration? Under specific conditions this can break molecular bonds. Yet, the bonds are broken, not cancelled.
 
bensonsearch said:
Thanx heaps for your answers, questions thou, if we were to talk about molecules would that make a differance?

Also do we know what causes the strong force? as all forces can be canceled out right?

thanx again

You cannot cancel out forces, they are always there. With the electromagnetic force you can make a particle *neutral* by adding in a equal and opposite charge. Both forces still exist, but since they are equal and opposite anything that would be attracted or repulsed by one or the other charges feels an equal force from both, giving a net force of 0.

The strong force is between the quarks that make up a proton and a neutron. It only acts at very very short ranges, but it is extremely strong. We cannot cancel it out because quarks always show up in pairs or triplets and in effect, cancel each other out themselves. (See Quantum Chromodynamics)

Edit: I guess the equal and opposite forces is exactly what cancels them out, but I figured its best to explain that you cannot turn the forces off somehow.
 
I quess cancel was a poor choice of words, make neutral is what i was meaning. so with relation to the specific breaking down of bonds (what I am after, again poor choice in wording sorry) it is possible then? ie: a piece of material (doesnt matter what) been broken apart and reduced to its base components by a specific vibration/sound at the right freq/amplitude etc
 
  • #10
bensonsearch said:
... it is possible then? ie: a piece of material (doesnt matter what) been broken apart and reduced to its base components by a specific vibration/sound at the right freq/amplitude etc

Yes. But the extant of that reduction is highly specific to composition and force applied.
That is, some compounds might indeed disintegrate completely, others might not.
 
  • #11
ok, so what kind of sound force are we talking then? ultra high freq? and i take it rather a lot of power?
 
  • #12
I do not know the specifics, but yes, ultrasonic drilling is an established technology.
Again, such methods only attack(significantly disrupt their stablility by intense, high frequency vibrations) the molecular bonds.
The atomic nucleus is undisturbed.

You might try Googling "ultrasonic drilling" or something similar.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K