Attitude about working in teens. Common or not?

[edward]

So this guy approached you first? Sounds like bad manners being the worst problem.

Up to you of course, and this might be the teacher in me talking, but I would call the parents to let them know why the kids services are no longer wanted. They might be interested in addressing some aspect of his conduct. I have found that 95% of contact with parents has had positive results. This ain't school, but it is a "learning experience."

I once had a father who stopped by and asked me how I got his teen aged son to work so hard.

I told him that I noticed that his son, David, had a bit of a problem with ADD. A big job left him a bit overwhelmed. He needed supervision. I broke the work down into smaller segments instead of just turning him loose for long periods on his own. He thrived with a structured day.

 

[edward]

Yeah, I was out walking my dog and ran into the kid, and he told me that he needed to earn $400 for driving lessons. I wasn't inclined to make him an offer right them, but when my wife got home, I told her what he said and she said I should hire him as-needed to get some chores done around here. Between tending the garden, weeding, mowing, and indoor chores, I can keep pretty busy, so some extra hands at times could be helpful. I don't know his parents very well, except that they are conservative fundamentalist Christians. Given that, I thought the kid would work out OK, but I was wrong about that.

BTW, he could have earned the entire $400 and more in just a couple of weeks if he had been willing to work. I still have another 2-1/2 cords of firewood to split and stack and a large stockpile of stones to make my wife's flower-bed with. He wouldn't have had to do any serious lifting, because I have a tractor to set the largest stones with. It would have been nice to have somebody on the front side of the loader bucket to let me know when I had the stone properly aligned for dumping.

If the young man lives near by I certainly wouldn't give up on him yet. Most of us who started working early on manual labor tasks had role models in our parents and family.

That isn't necessarily true these days. You could turn out to be the role model he needs. Be patient, it may pay off when you really really need someone to help with a job.

Then again the kid could be a total flake.

 

[turbo]

He's unfailingly polite and quiet. I haven't given up on him entirely, but I'm not going to offer him an open-ended job in which he can set his own hours and work unsupervised. Apparently that's too much to ask of him. If I ask him to help me with something in the future, it will be a supervised job with set hours. Maybe that will work.

 

[dlgoff]

I haven't given up on him entirely, but I'm not going to offer him an open-ended job in which he can set his own hours and work unsupervised. Apparently that's too much to ask of him. If I ask him to help me with something in the future, it will be a supervised job with set hours. Maybe that will work.

Maybe some astronomy research would break the ice.

 

[turbo]

Maybe some astronomy research would break the ice.

Unfortunately, his mother uses scented fabric softener so he'd put me in the hospital if I tried to work with him indoors. Plus, Hyper-Leda, N.E.D. and IRSA are on slow-as-death servers, so I have a lot of wait-time, anyway.

 

[Jasongreat]

Probably because you're paying him garbage wages and expecting him to work hard in the heat. He could get a better paying job in an air-conditioned store sitting on his butt, why is he going to bust his *** because you're too lazy to do the work yourself?

Wow, IMO this post says it all, the bird in the bush is better than the bird in hand anymore. What has happened to the concept that wages should be based on the employees value to the employer?

Stacking wood is not hard work, especially when it is cut and split already and the heat has no bearing, since it has already been stated that the kid could show up when he wanted, such as before or after the heat of the day. I guess as they say everything is relative, if one has never worked a hard job, then any job may be considered hard or even too hard.

'Garbage' wages are all that can be expected with garbage skills, everyone has to start somewhere and 7.50 under the table is more than a fair price for unskilled labor. I would have offered him a certain amount, like say 40 bucks completed, that way if he busts his butt he gets more per hour, if not he gets less/ hour, and if he doesn't complete it he is owed nothing. It might help him see how his actions correlate to his rewards.

Turbo-1 is not to blame at all, except maybe for being too generous, the kid he had an agreement with didnt live up to his side of the deal. Not only is his word no good, he has no work ethic and it is not turbo-1s fault it is the kid and his parents fault. They are definitely raising someone incapable of self government, just another one of the entitlement generation, imo.

 

[turbo]

Turbo-1 is not to blame at all, except maybe for being too generous, the kid he had an agreement with didnt live up to his side of the deal. Not only is his word no good, he has no work ethic and it is not turbo-1s fault it is the kid and his parents fault. They are definitely raising someone incapable of self government, just another one of the entitlement generation, imo.

I don't want to think too badly of the kid, or give up on him entirely. His brother has gone into basic training, his sister and mother both work in a law office and his father works some long hours as a crane operator, so he's got no ride. He's pretty much stuck at home every day, miles from town, with no driver's license. I figured he'd be glad to pick up some jobs, pay for his driver's school, and get his license so he could get around on his own.

Another neighbor is ready to put an addition on his house for his daughter and her two little girls. That could have given the kid a chance to earn even more money while we are framing and sheathing the addition, but given his lack of responsibility, he might not get a chance.

 

[lisab]

I don't want to think too badly of the kid, or give up on him entirely. His brother has gone into basic training, his sister and mother both work in a law office and his father works some long hours as a crane operator, so he's got no ride. He's pretty much stuck at home every day, miles from town, with no driver's license. I figured he'd be glad to pick up some jobs, pay for his driver's school, and get his license so he could get around on his own.

Another neighbor is ready to put an addition on his house for his daughter and her two little girls. That could have given the kid a chance to earn even more money while we are framing and sheathing the addition, but given his lack of responsibility, he might not get a chance.

Just curious...is he home schooled?

 

[turbo]

Just curious...is he home schooled?

No, public school system.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I once had a father who stopped by and asked me how I got his teen aged son to work so hard.

I told him that I noticed that his son, David, had a bit of a problem with ADD. A big job left him a bit overwhelmed. He needed supervision. I broke the work down into smaller segments instead of just turning him loose for long periods on his own. He thrived with a structured day.

This is more or less what I was thinking. He may just need someone there to keep him involved. Some people just aren't cut out for doing work on their own.

At my current job I have virtually no supervision what so ever and most of my coworkers wind up screwing off, leaving early, ect. I had another job at an art supply store that was similar. We had supervision but were more or less let loose and told to keep busy. We made well over minimum wage and got an hour lunch (the only place I have ever had an hour lunch). All we did was make sure our departments were clean and organized, help customers, and try to learn more about our products by reading pamphlets and such. As easy as the job was I watched at least three new hires come in for training and disappear after the first day or two.

 

[turbo]

This is more or less what I was thinking. He may just need someone there to keep him involved. Some people just aren't cut out for doing work on their own.

Edward's comment about breaking up jobs made me think a bit. I showed the kid how I wanted the wood stacked, though, and I thought that was pretty simple. Probably couldn't have made the job any simpler unless I stayed outside to supervise him and direct him, though I fail to see the benefit. I often stay up quite late and get up around 9 or so, and I let him know that if he wanted to start early, all he had to do was tell me his start time, and I'd pay him through his quitting time. I didn't think that was unfair at all.

He's not a bad kid. He just seems to have no conception of self-motivation when he has been offered an opportunity to earn money that he told me that he needed. I'm flummoxed. His father is a pretty stern guy in some respects so I don't want to rat him out and get him in hot water, but I'm afraid he's missing some critical life skills.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Edward's comment about breaking up jobs made me think a bit. I showed the kid how I wanted the wood stacked, though, and I thought that was pretty simple. Probably couldn't have made the job any simpler unless I stayed outside to supervise him and direct him, though I fail to see the benefit. I often stay up quite late and get up around 9 or so, and I let him know that if he wanted to start early, all he had to do was tell me his start time, and I'd pay him through his quitting time. I didn't think that was unfair at all.

He's not a bad kid. He just seems to have no conception of self-motivation when he has been offered an opportunity to earn money that he told me that he needed. I'm flummoxed. His father is a pretty stern guy in some respects so I don't want to rat him out and get him in hot water, but I'm afraid he's missing some critical life skills.

I am not sure what exactly would be the best route. I have only dealt with small kids who obviously do much better when they have someone right there at their side. An older teen oughtn't need such hand holding and it really sort of defeats the purpose of this job you gave him if you have to be at his side all the time. Maybe if you were to just check on him from time to time. Give him little pointers if he seems to need them. Maybe bring him some icewater and have him take a break and chat for 20 or 30 minutes. I was fairly sheltered as a kid, as I expect that he is and probably to a greater degree, and I remember the thing that made me want to avoid doing such jobs was not really knowing the person I was doing work for. A grade school friend of mine used to mow lawns and when he went on vacation his parents told me that I could use their equipment and take over his business for a few weeks that summer. I feel stupid for not having done it now, I did then too, but I remember being rather leery of going to houses of people I did not know let alone several of them.

What ever the case is, while it may turn out a wash, I think you would feel much better if you were to wind up helping him than if you gave up and watched him become a loaf. I'm sure you already know that, just sayin.

 

[Blenton]

But anyway how can you make such broad generalizations from the actions of one kid?

 

[murray92]

I am not sure what exactly would be the best route. I have only dealt with small kids who obviously do much better when they have someone right there at their side. An older teen oughtn't need such hand holding and it really sort of defeats the purpose of this job you gave him if you have to be at his side all the time. Maybe if you were to just check on him from time to time. Give him little pointers if he seems to need them. Maybe bring him some icewater and have him take a break and chat for 20 or 30 minutes. I was fairly sheltered as a kid, as I expect that he is and probably to a greater degree, and I remember the thing that made me want to avoid doing such jobs was not really knowing the person I was doing work for. A grade school friend of mine used to mow lawns and when he went on vacation his parents told me that I could use their equipment and take over his business for a few weeks that summer. I feel stupid for not having done it now, I did then too, but I remember being rather leery of going to houses of people I did not know let alone several of them.

What ever the case is, while it may turn out a wash, I think you would feel much better if you were to wind up helping him than if you gave up and watched him become a loaf. I'm sure you already know that, just sayin.

This seems like good advice!

Edward's comment about breaking up jobs made me think a bit. I showed the kid how I wanted the wood stacked, though, and I thought that was pretty simple. Probably couldn't have made the job any simpler unless I stayed outside to supervise him and direct him, though I fail to see the benefit. I often stay up quite late and get up around 9 or so, and I let him know that if he wanted to start early, all he had to do was tell me his start time, and I'd pay him through his quitting time. I didn't think that was unfair at all.

He staked/chooped some wood didn't he? Maybe It seemed to him that you weren't satisfied with his work, so he didn't want to embarrass himself further by delivering sub standard work!

I thought about this thread a bit in the last days... The attractive part about the job is the fact that he can decide his own working hours, so maybe he didn't get this part.
Or there was an easier opportunity to get the bucks, and he doesn't need more?
(e.g. he visited some family, which gave him the bucks) And now he doesn't want to tell you that he won't do the work.

Or he thinks that because he can decide his own working hours, he might turn up in the last week of june work 8 hours a day for a week and have the money for his liscense. (I might do it that way, instead of coming one for a say 7 weeks)
Anyway just ask him... but be nice...

Or he decided he doesn't need or want the license... or his parents forbid him to work, or do the license?

... But I suspect that the main problem is that he might have not understood that he can decide his own working hours.
Or maybe he is afraid of doing something wrong/ruining something... (I ruined an axe when i tried to chop firewood once, and also dammaged the parquet, yes it was indoors...)

Does he have a girlfriend? (or friends he does stuff with)

 

[stevenb]

I don't oversee him. I take note of when he shows up and when he quits and pay him for the hours he was here. It's not like I'm expecting a lot out of him - still it's too much work, apparently. I don't think $7.50 for unskilled labor is too bad, especially since if he was working for a business, he'd be knocked with withholding for SS, state and federal income tax, etc. What would that leave him? Six bucks and change? Plus I let him set his own hours, so if he wanted to stack wood in the early morning or in the evening when it's cooler, he can. I would have killed for a job like that when I was a kid.

You make very good points. You should fire him and find someone else. I don't buy the typical arguments that an entire generation is lazy. You just need to find the right kid with the right attitude. The right attitude is that he is getting paid to exercise and stay healthy. That was my attitude when I was young. Now that I'm older and work as an engineer, my attitude is that I get paid to learn. With the right attitude we should all live a long and healthy life without working a single day.

 

[TMFKAN64]

There is nothing to be ashamed of in manual labor, but there is nothing enobling about it either.

Although I agree that the kid shouldn't have said he would do it and then blow it off.

 

[turbo]

There is nothing to be ashamed of in manual labor, but there is nothing enobling about it either.

Although I agree that the kid shouldn't have said he would do it and then blow it off.

When you're a kid, manual labor is a good way to learn how things work, including business deals, commitments, etc.

When I was hired as a 14-year-old to be caretaker for the town cemetery, the sexton got rid of 3 older guys that were slackers and saved the town a bunch of money. I went full-time in summers and never missed a day of work for the next 3 years. I missed two days (with the blessing of the sexton) when there was a large forest-fire in a remote part of Maine, and my Forestry Dept Hot-Shot training as a Boy Scout let me earn $2.60/hr fighting fire instead of $1.25 maintaining a cemetery.

As I said earlier, if I were faced with a bunch of fresh unskilled applicants and one of them noted that they had worked haying or milking on a dairy farm, that paper would rise to the top of the pile. Nothing enobling about that work perhaps, but haying is hot, dirty dangerous work, and mucking stalls (needs to be done every single day) and manning overnight milking shifts (cows NEED to be milked!) shows maturity and reliability that I would find hard to discount.

 

[edward]

As I look back at my youth and compare it to the present I would equate manual labor to getting paid to pump iron. Uhh some people aren't going to connect with that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As I look back at my youth and compare it to the present I would equate manual labor to getting paid to pump iron. Uhh some people aren't going to connect with that.

I have long been amused by the fact that as we reduce the need for manual labor, we not only create pseudo-labor in its place, but we pay to do it. Talk about entropy!

I'm with edward. Turbo, there you go! Advertise as a health club and make people pay to stack wood. Bingo! The scammer commune promoters have been pulling this one on the doe-eyed activists for decades now.

 

[Borg]

As I look back at my youth and compare it to the present I would equate manual labor to getting paid to pump iron. Uhh some people aren't going to connect with that.

I would drive up and do it just for the fun of it but, the greater effort would be justifying it with my wife.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I'd suggest paying a flat fee for a job, make an estimate about how long you think it should take and base a rate on that then negotiate with him.

At $7.50 an hour it can seem like a pittance with no end in sight, and boring work is meh if you get paid anyway there really is no incentive to finish the job. A lump sum at the end of a job is psychologically more rewarding.

Although anyone who's truly lazy won't bother anyway.

 

[DanP]

As I look back at my youth and compare it to the present I would equate manual labor to getting paid to pump iron. Uhh some people aren't going to connect with that.

There are wealthy gentlemen in England who drive four-horse passenger- coaches twenty or thirty miles on a daily line, in the summer, because the privilege costs them considerable money; but if they were offered wages for the service, that would turn it into work and then they would resign.

Mark Twain, The Adventures of Tom Swayer

Make no mistake about it, work is work.

 

[stevenb]

Make no mistake about it, work is work.

I both agree and disagree with you.

I agree in the sense that work is a commitment and an agreement between two parties. One offers money (or trade) for labor. The one doing the labor is obligated to operate in the best interest of his employer, as per the agreement and all the unspoken implications of being an employee.

However, I disagree in the sense that some people are fortunate enough to be able to choose their employer (within significant constraints of course) and choose the type of work they do. This is different than being desperate and needing to do any work to survive. The later is true work, while the former can be "not work" in some sense.

If a person spends time exercising (as necessary with our modern lifestyle) to stay healthy, then it is not really work to get paid to do an alternate form of exercise. This is especially true in the case cited in this thread. The kid has total flexibility on time and nothing better to do. He can exercise and improve his body and think about anything he likes while he is working. Not real work.

Similarly, I'm now heading into work (as an research scientist/engineer) where I get to do the things I enjoy most. I'm getting paid to do what I would do anyway at home for free as a hobby. To me, that's not real work even though I am ethical and always act in the best interest of my employer, not just for my selfish enjoyment. This latter part is what makes what I do work, but it is not the same kind of work others often have to do just to survive and keep family cared for. I feel like I'm getting paid to go to a "school" to learn, in one sense. I also feel like I'm getting paid to do my hobby, in another sense. I also feel like I'm getting paid to do something worthwhile that contributes to society, in the best sense.

Perhaps this is self-deception in a way, and work is work, but somehow it doesn't seem fair to compare the person who looks forward to going to work with a person who works a lifetime dreading every work day.

The title of this thread uses the word "attitude" and this is the key word. The difference between winners and losers is attitude. It's clear this kid has a bad attitude and it needs to be corrected before he heads down the wrong path.

 

[edward]

I have long been amused by the fact that as we reduce the need for manual labor, we not only create pseudo-labor in its place, but we pay to do it. Talk about entropy!

I'm with edward. Turbo, there you go! Advertise as a health club and make people pay to stack wood. Bingo! The scammer commune promoters have been pulling this one on the doe-eyed activists for decades now.

Turbo could even have a late night infomercial on the benefits of his fitness program.

Edit: Better yet he could build an exercise machine called "The Wood Stacker."

 

[Office_Shredder]

For 100 dollars a year plus shipping and handling, we'll send you fresh supplies of wood monthly in order to maintain a world class wood stacking regimen

 

[DanP]

If a person spends time exercising (as necessary with our modern lifestyle) to stay healthy, then it is not really work to get paid to do an alternate form of exercise. This is especially true in the case cited in this thread. The kid has total flexibility on time and nothing better to do. He can exercise and improve his body and think about anything he likes while he is working. Not real work.

If somebody would offer me 7US$ to do the work equivalent to the workout I did this afternoon I would show him the finger and laugh in his face :P It simply does not worth.
Of course, everything has a price ... so I am sure I could be persuaded for the right amount of money.

Similarly, I'm now heading into work (as an research scientist/engineer) where I get to do the things I enjoy most. I'm getting paid to do what I would do anyway at home for free as a hobby.

I agree with this. Its very nice to work with the things you love. A few lucky do this and their life is much better. But I have a question:

How much would you enjoy your **job** (nota bene, not necessarily the work you do at your job, but the job with everything which implies, coworkers, bosses, wages and so on) if you would be payed minimum wage ?

The title of this thread uses the word "attitude" and this is the key word. The difference between winners and losers is attitude. It's clear this kid has a bad attitude and it needs to be corrected before he heads down the wrong path.

I don't know if the kid has a bad attitude or not, and if we have any right to say he needs to be "corrected". I don't see in this thread enough data to persuade me one way or another. The only thing I didn't liked is that he didint let Turbo know he forfeits the work.
One of the basic "dogmas" of social psychology is that we often don't know what we think we know. There others closer to the kid who can evaluate him, over the internet its hard to judge.

 

[stevenb]

How much would you enjoy your **job** (nota bene, not necessarily the work you do at your job, but the job with everything which implies, coworkers, bosses, wages and so on) if you would be payed minimum wage ?

Fair question. I would enjoy the job just as much, but there would of course be the issue of principle. I wouldn't want to be taken advantage of. But, in high school, I did many jobs for minumum wage. That was fair pay for what I did then.

I don't know if the kid has a bad attitude or not, and if we have any right to say he needs to be "corrected". I don't see in this thread enough data to persuade me one way or another. The only thing I didn't liked is that he didint let Turbo know he forfeits the work.
One of the basic "dogmas" of social psychology is that we often don't know what we think we know. There others closer to the kid who can evaluate him, over the internet its hard to judge.

Fair comment. I can't come to my conclusion without more information, but it's a gut feeling based on the information provided. There is nothing to indicate that the kid has major problems. But, to me, it's clear that he is not yet an outstanding person with a winning attitude. If I'm right about that, it's not too late to educate him and get him on that path. Some winners blossom a little later than others, and often all it takes finding a good role model to emulate.

 

[DanP]

Fair question. I would enjoy the job just as much, but there would of course be the issue of principle. I wouldn't want to be taken advantage of. But, in high school, I did many jobs for minumum wage. That was fair pay for what I did then.

The point I am trying to make is that work has a relative value for everybody, and that everything has a price. If you deem the wage unworthy for the work to be done, and decide you don't want to be taken advantage of, you really don't have an attitude problem IMO. You would have a problem if you would do the job for those money when you feel you should get more.

If you have 15 years and want to buy Feynman's lectures and you decide to work a bit, minimum wage is OK. If you already have the books, and instead of saving for a book you decide you want a car for your 16th birthday, 7US$ /h may seem mighty unworthy. you are way better off thinking big and starting to camp e-bay and craig list and buy and sell like a madman :P I.e , learn to do commerce and in the end, have other humans working for you

 

[SticksandStones]

I've been trying to get a construction job all summer. Turbo, if I were in Maine I'd be at your place every day and you'd have enough firewood to last you a lifetime. The kid is lazy, but then again that's par for the course when it comes to people. :)

Do you know of any college kids in your area? They'd probably be more reliable and if the unemployment rate is as high as you say it is they'd be happy to work for you.

 

[turbo]

I was trying to free up some time for myself and do the kid a favor at the same time, so he could accumulate enough cash to pay for driver education. Yes, I could hire out-of-work adults to do this work, but I'll just do the work myself and save the money.

The humidity and heat aren't as bad as they had been, so I can work outside for longer stretches and get stuff done. Working outside in 90+ degree heat can be tough when you have respiratory problems.