Bead sliding on a rotating rod Lagrangian

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The problem involves a bead of mass m sliding on a smooth rod of length l, which is inclined at a constant angle α to the downward vertical and rotating about a vertical axis with angular velocity ω. The bead's displacement along the rod is denoted as r(t). The tasks include finding the Lagrangian and the equation of motion, as well as demonstrating a specific time interval for the bead falling off the rod.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Mixed

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the formulation of kinetic and potential energy, questioning the inclusion of the tangential velocity term in the kinetic energy expression. There is exploration of the relationship between the distance along the rod and the distance from the axis of rotation.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants raising questions about the assumptions made regarding the geometry of the problem and the interpretation of the angle α. Some participants suggest that the rod rotates in a plane while maintaining a constant angle with the vertical, leading to further exploration of the implications of this setup.

Contextual Notes

There is a noted confusion regarding the interpretation of the rod's angle and its relationship to the axis of rotation, as well as the dimensionality of the problem (2D vs. 3D). Participants are considering the implications of these assumptions on the formulation of the problem.

CAF123
Gold Member
Messages
2,918
Reaction score
87

Homework Statement


A bead of mass m slides under gravity on a smooth rod of length l which is inclined at a constant angle ##\alpha## to the downward vertical and made to rotate at angular velocity ##\omega## about a vertical axis. The displacement of the bead along the rod is r(t).

A)Find the Lagrangian and the equation of motion of the bead, and obtain the general solution.
B) Show that if the bead is released from rest at r=0, it falls off the rod after a time interval $$t = \frac{1}{\omega \sin \alpha} \cosh^{-1} \left( 1 + \frac{l \omega^2 \sin^2 \alpha}{g \cos \alpha}\right)$$

Homework Equations


Lagrangian L = T - V

The Attempt at a Solution


Write the kinetic and potential energy of the bead. I get: $$T = \frac{m}{2}(\dot{r}^2 + r^2 \omega^2)\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\text{and}\,\,\,\,\,\,V = -mgr\cos \alpha$$

Using Lagrange's Eqns, this gives ##\ddot{r} - \omega^2 r = g \cos \alpha## so ##r = C_1 \exp(\omega t) + C_2 \exp(- \omega t) - g \cos \alpha/\omega^2##

If the bead is released at the origin, set t=0 as well for convenience then ##r(0) = \dot{r}(0) = 0##. Solve these to obtain ##C_1, C_2## to get $$r = \frac{g \cos \alpha}{\omega^2} \left( \frac{\exp(\omega t) + \exp(-\omega t)}{2}\right) - \frac{g \cos \alpha}{\omega^2}$$

It will fall off when r=l, so solving gives $$t = \frac{1}{\omega} \cosh^{-1} \left(1 + \frac{\omega^2l}{g \cos \alpha}\right)$$

I'm not really sure where the sin term comes in. The question states that the rod is inclined at a constant angle ##\alpha## to the downward vertical. But the rod rotates so I don't see how this is possible.
Many thanks.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
How did you get the second term in kinetic energy?
 
Hi voko,
voko said:
How did you get the second term in kinetic energy?

I believe this term describes the tangential velocity of the bead which is present because the rod is rotating in the plane, and the bead is constrained to move along the rod.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: 1 person
But why is the tangential velocity ## r \omega ##? ## r ## is the distance along the rod, not from the axis of rotation.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ThePhysicist_in
voko said:
But why is the tangential velocity ## r \omega ##? ## r ## is the distance along the rod, not from the axis of rotation.
I assumed the axis of rotation was at the origin, is is not?
 
CAF123 said:
I assumed the axis of rotation was at the origin, is is not?

This seems reasonable, yet ##r## is still not the radius of rotation.
 
voko said:
This seems reasonable, yet ##r## is still not the radius of rotation.

I set the problem up with one end of the rod at the origin and the other end at a radial distance ##r=l## from the origin with the rod at an angle ##\alpha## to ##-\hat{y}##. In this case, the position of the bead along the rod and the distance of the bead from the axis of rotation are the same, no?

Perhaps I misinterpreted the problem statement. As noted in the OP, the rod is at a constant angle ##\alpha## to ##-\hat{y}##. But it rotates so ##\alpha## is not the same at all times.
 
The very first sentence in the formulation states that the angle is constant. It cannot be both constant and "not the same".

The only sensible explanation I can think of is that the rod and the vertical axis are always coplanar and at a constant angle, but the plane rotates about the axis.
 
voko said:
The very first sentence in the formulation states that the angle is constant. It cannot be both constant and "not the same".

The only sensible explanation I can think of is that the rod and the vertical axis are always coplanar and at a constant angle, but the plane rotates about the axis.

What about if the rod is in 3D space, with one end attached to the origin and the other at a distance r=l from the origin, pointing downwards below the xy plane. Then the angle between the rod and the negative y-axis is always alpha, while it rotates, creating a sort of cone shaped outline as it rotates.
 
  • #10
CAF123 said:
What about if the rod is in 3D space, with one end attached to the origin and the other at a distance r=l from the origin, pointing downwards below the xy plane. Then the angle between the rod and the negative y-axis is always alpha, while it rotates, creating a sort of cone shaped outline as it rotates.

I think this is what I described earlier. What is the distance from the axis at any point of the cone, given its distance from the vertex is ##r##?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: 1 person
  • #11
voko said:
I think this is what I described earlier. What is the distance from the axis at any point of the cone, given its distance from the vertex is ##r##?

It is rsinα.
 
  • #12
Thanks voko, I got it. I originally envisaged the problem in 2D, which is why I had the confusion with the angle.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
1K
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
Replies
9
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K