Berthelot Equation 1: Solving for Variables

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Berthelot equation and its derivation, particularly in relation to solving for variables such as Vm and Vmc. Participants explore the mathematical relationships and transformations involved in the equation, comparing it to the van der Waals equation and addressing issues related to the use of LaTeX for mathematical expressions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the derivation steps from the Berthelot equation, specifically how to transition from one form to another.
  • One participant asserts that the correct answer to a problem is 'c', although the context of the problem is not fully detailed.
  • Another participant discusses their reasoning regarding proton affinity, indicating a lack of feedback on their earlier post.
  • There is a comparison between the van der Waals equation and the Berthelot equation, with some participants questioning whether one can be derived from the other.
  • Several mathematical expressions are presented, including derivatives and relationships between constants a, b, R, and their dependence on Pc and Tc.
  • One participant notes that the constant a in the Berthelot equation differs from that in the van der Waals equation by a factor of Tc.
  • Questions are raised about how to express Vm and Vmc in terms of Pc and Tc, suggesting a potential cubic equation to solve.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the derivation steps or the relationship between the Berthelot and van der Waals equations. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain regarding the correct approach to the problem.

Contextual Notes

Some mathematical steps and assumptions are not fully resolved, particularly in the context of deriving Vm and Vmc. The discussion includes various forms of the equations and their implications, which may depend on specific definitions or interpretations.

jbowers9
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1. The problem statement, all variabl
The attempt at a solution

 
Last edited:
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The answer is obviously 'c'.
 
I'm sorry. I had some problems using the Latex editor. It's my first time using it. I did post earlier about proton affinity though. I haven't gotten a heads up from anyone about it but I think my reasoning is correct. I really wish that there was something like PF when I was in school.
Oh, and the correct answer to the above problem is c.
 
What I was trying to ask was how does the author Klotz get from a to b?
a
(P + a/Vm^2)( Vm - b) = RT

b
P Vm = RT [1 + 9/128 P/Pc * Tc / T (1 - 6 T^2c / T^2)
 
See below please
 
Last edited:
(P + a/V2m)(Vm - b) = RT

P = RT/( Vm - b) - a/Vm^2

∂Vm/∂ Pc = 0 = -RTc/( Vmc - b)^2 + 2a/TcVmc^3
∂Vm2/∂2 Pc = 0 = 2RTc/( Vmc - b)^3 - 6a/TcVmc^4


b = Vmc /3 ; 2a = 9RTc/4Vmc^2 * TcVmc^3

a = 9/8 RTc^2 Vmc = 3PcVmc^2 Tc


PcTcVmc^2 = 3/2R Tc^2 Vmc - a

4 PcTcVmc^2 = 3/2R Tc^2 Vmc

3 R Tc/8Pc = Vmc = 3b
b = R Tc/8Pc
4/3 a = 3/2 RTc^2 Vmc
a = 3/4 * 3/2 * 3/8 R2 Tc^3 / Pc
a = 27/64 R^2 Tc^3 / Pc ; b = R Tc/8Pc ; R = 8Pc Vmc/3 Tc
PVmc = RT [1+1/8 PTc /PcT - 9/8 Tc Vmc /T^2 Vm + 3/8 Tc^2 Vmc^2 /T^2 Vm^2 ]

How do I get Vm and Vmc in terms of Pc & Tc? Solve a cubic in terms of Vm?

P Vm = RT[1 + 9/128 P/Pc * Tc/T (1 - 6 Tc^2 /T^2)]
 
(a) is the van der Waals equation and (b) is the Berthelot equation. They arise from two different models, and I don't believe they are functionally identical (I could be wrong here, I haven't tried to check). Is there a reason that you believe one is derivable from the other?
 
Hello sir. Thank you for your time and attention on these matters. Weell, a should actually be

(P + a/TVm^2)(Vm - b) = RT

which is a form of the Berthelot equation. The development and derivations for a, b, R and the form of the eq. which contains Vmc and Vm are the same as the original post.

P = RT/(Vm - b) - a/TVm^2

∂Vm/∂ Pc = 0 = -RTc/( Vmc - b)^2 + 2a/TcVmc^3
∂Vm2/∂2 Pc = 0 = 2RTc/( Vmc - b)^3 - 6a/TcVmc^4


b = Vmc /3 ;
2a = 9RTc/4Vmc^2 * TcVmc^3

a = 9/8 RTc^2 Vmc = 3PcVmc^2 Tc

The constant a differs from the van der Waals constant value by a factor of Tc.

PcTcVmc^2 = 3/2R Tc^2 Vmc - a

4 PcTcVmc^2 = 3/2R Tc^2 Vmc
3 R Tc/8Pc = Vmc = 3b

b = R Tc/8Pc
which is the same as the van der Waals value.

4/3 a = 3/2 RTc^2 Vmc
a = 3/4 * 3/2 * 3/8 R2 Tc^3 / Pc

a = 27/64 R^2 Tc^3 / Pc ; b = R Tc/8Pc ; R = 8Pc Vmc/3 Tc

R and b are the same as for the van der Waals eq. The constant a varies only by a factor of Tc.


PVmc = RT [1+1/8 PTc /PcT - 9/8 Tc Vmc /T^2 Vm + 3/8 Tc^2 Vmc^2 /T^2 Vm^2 ]

So how do I get Vm and Vmc in terms of Pc & Tc? Solve a cubic in terms of Vm?

P Vm = RT[1 + 9/128 P/Pc * Tc/T (1 - 6 Tc^2 /T^2)]
 

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