B Big Bang & Infinite Universe: Evidence & Discrepancies

[JonathanCollins]

There would have been an infinite amount of matter/energy, but there would not have been any galaxies. They came later.

The OBSERVABLE universe, as has been pointed out, was in a very small space. "the universe" may or may not have been.

Yes, you're missing several things. See above.

EDIT: By the way, most of us have similar confusion when we first start learning this stuff. It IS confusing.

It is surely speculative to state that "there would have been an infinite amount of matter/energy"? Since the observable universe is still expanding it cannot be infinite. On the basis that the observable universe is finite its origin is more likely to be finite than infinite.

 

[phinds]

It is surely speculative to state that "there would have been an infinite amount of matter/energy"? Since the observable universe is still expanding it cannot be infinite. On the basis that the observable universe is finite its origin is more likely to be finite than infinite.

Read post #4 and see what I was replying to. You are setting up a strawman that is not what I was replying to and then knocking it down in a way that is correct for the strawman but has nothing to do with what I said

 

[JonathanCollins]

I did read the the post to which you replied. To my understanding your response is stating that at the time of the big bang "there would have been an infinite amount of matter/energy" (which is not known) and "there would not have been any galaxies" (which is very likely from the evidence). Perhaps I have misunderstood your response?

 

[JonathanCollins]

My understanding is that if you use math and ignore physics then yes you get that. If you use physics what you have to say is that the BB as we know it started at one Plank time after the singularity (and this is what I was extrapolating back to with my approximate 10^60 factor) and that's ALL we can say because the model breaks down (again, thinking in terms of physics, not math) if you extrapolate back to t=0 rather than extrapolating back to "t=0 plus one Plank time".

So with math your statement is correct but with physics it's not. That's my take on the situation anyway.

That is also my take. Personally I don't believe maths can necessarily be viewed as a reliable tool for such extreme extrapolations.

 

[phinds]

I did read the the post to which you replied. To my understanding your response is stating that at the time of the big bang "there would have been an infinite amount of matter/energy" (which is not known) and "there would not have been any galaxies" (which is very likely from the evidence). Perhaps I have misunderstood your response?

You are continuing to ignore the difference between the Observable universe and "the universe". Please re-read post #4 again and see exactly what was said and what my response was to exactly what was said.

 

[JonathanCollins]

I have read it again and still reach the same understanding. To clarify at what point and under what circumstances are you saying that there would have been an infinite amount of matter/energy?

 

[phinds]

I have read it again and still reach the same understanding. To clarify at what point and under what circumstances are you saying that there would have been an infinite amount of matter/energy?

If the universe was infinite in extent at the beginning then it would have had an infinite amount of matter/energy. Had this not been the case, then it is incredible hubris to think that WE happen to be in the one part that had matter/energy. The Anthropic Principle, of course, can be used to say that well of course we have to be in that part, but I think that's a cop-out.

 

[JonathanCollins]

What is your opinion on the existence of anything external to the singularity (matter, energy, space et al) at the moment of the big bang?

 

[bcrowell]

What is your opinion on the existence of anything external to the singularity (matter, energy, space et al) at the moment of the big bang?

The Big Bang singularity was not a single point. The Big Bang happened everywhere at once. There was nothing external to it.

 

[marcus]

In my experience over the years with the PF Cosmo forum the people who can think visually in new ways and want to learn tend to stay around and people who want to debate matters of verbal opinion tend to go away.

... is still expanding it cannot be infinite. ...

Jonathan I'd like to invite you to take a break from arguing matters of opinion at this point and try imagining a finite volume that has no boundaries.

Nothing outside or inside it, just it.

Analogous to a balloon surface with all existence concentrated on the 2d surface---nothing inside or outside of it. No boundary because closed around on itself. Like a circular ring has no boundary.

Can you picture the analogous 3d volume?

Also Jonathan can you imagine the experience of being a 2d creature living in the zero thickness 2d surface of the balloon?
Say it is expanding. It is not expanding INTO anything, because there is no external space. All existence is concentrated in that finite area.
How do you experience the expansion? You and your family and your 2d house stay the same size but larger scale distances (like between disconnected galaxies) grow.

Can you imagine living in an infinite volume space that is expanding? It is not expanding INTO anything because there is no outside of it either. What would its expansion look like for someone dwelling in it?

Just because I'm encouraging you to exercise your visual imagination doesn't mean I'm trying to *convince* you of anything. the issue is suppleness of visual imagination, not opinion.
In fact I personally prefer to imagine the cosmos as having no boundaries and a FINITE spatial volume. But some people prefer to think of it as spatially infinite, and we never argue about this because so far the question has not been resolved. It may be resolved in the future, with more and more precise observations (or it might never be resolved...)

 

[Murdstone]

Bob,

Ten or fifteen years ago the prevailing theory was one of point expansion - existence happen at a finite point and expanded outward. They even had, and this was science, predictions of size and energy content.

Problem was no one could find a center.

Most of what is discussed today is theory. Given this - that happens. How close the theory is to what is actually happening is speculative?

You have to realize that some people have invested there whole life believing in "the Earth is flat" - one theory or another.

One must appreciate that the discussion is about theoretical models - not necessarily reality.

At the heart of it all is that there is no definitive definition of space. You can have all kinds of theoretical definitions of SPACE but I have yet to encounter any physical definition of space.

This is what I want - A non mathematical definition of space.

 

[phinds]

What is your opinion on the existence of anything external to the singularity (matter, energy, space et al) at the moment of the big bang?

That's a nonsensical, self-contradictory question. "Singularity" just means "what the hell ever existed at the point in time which we call t=0 when extrapolating back so far the math model gives unphysical results". "What the hell ever existed ... " includes everything, whatever it was.

 

[bcrowell]

Ten or fifteen years ago the prevailing theory was one of point expansion - existence happen at a finite point and expanded outward.

No, this is nonsense. FLRW dates back to about the 1920s and 1930s. Nobody was taking seriously any model of the type you're describing as late as 2000 or 2005.

 

[JonathanCollins]

That's a nonsensical, self-contradictory question. "Singularity" just means "what the hell ever existed at the point in time which we call t=0 when extrapolating back so far the math model gives unphysical results". "What the hell ever existed ... " includes everything, whatever it was.

The question is no more nonsensical and self-contradictory than the mathematically extrapolated notion of a singularity existing within nothing and I assume from your response that you are simply puzzled by the paradoxes that follow. The theoretical singularity at the centre of a black hole is surrounded by a galaxy so by analogy with the theoretical singularity from which our observable universe was spawned it is rational to assume something outside of that theoretical singularity. Indeed it is irrational to envisage a singularity that exists within nothing. Since current maths and physics break down at the singularity the state of the universe at that time is currently open to debate and interpretation.

 

[neil richardson]

BBT is a theory applicable to the observable universe, which is not infinite.
The entire universe may or may not be infinite and as far as I know, BBT doesn't have a lot to say about it.

Well put! Cosmologists and other scientists are at last catching up with philosophy on the finite / infinite question and not before time. The general public have been left cold and confused by the Science community's culture of only explaining what they can detect and measure. They should have been more forth right in putting there findings in context, i.e the big bang should have been clearly set in the limit of observation. This failure has allowed monotheistic religion a get out of jail free card.

 

[JonathanCollins]

In my experience over the years with the PF Cosmo forum the people who can think visually in new ways and want to learn tend to stay around and people who want to debate matters of verbal opinion tend to go away.
Jonathan I'd like to invite you to take a break from arguing matters of opinion at this point and try imagining a finite volume that has no boundaries.

Nothing outside or inside it, just it.

Analogous to a balloon surface with all existence concentrated on the 2d surface---nothing inside or outside of it. No boundary because closed around on itself. Like a circular ring has no boundary.

Can you picture the analogous 3d volume?

Also Jonathan can you imagine the experience of being a 2d creature living in the zero thickness 2d surface of the balloon?
Say it is expanding. It is not expanding INTO anything, because there is no external space. All existence is concentrated in that finite area.
How do you experience the expansion? You and your family and your 2d house stay the same size but larger scale distances (like between disconnected galaxies) grow.

Can you imagine living in an infinite volume space that is expanding? It is not expanding INTO anything because there is no outside of it either. What would its expansion look like for someone dwelling in it?

Just because I'm encouraging you to exercise your visual imagination doesn't mean I'm trying to *convince* you of anything. the issue is suppleness of visual imagination, not opinion.
In fact I personally prefer to imagine the cosmos as having no boundaries and a FINITE spatial volume. But some people prefer to think of it as spatially infinite, and we never argue about this because so far the question has not been resolved. It may be resolved in the future, with more and more precise observations (or it might never be resolved...)

Hi Marcus, yes I have come across these concepts many times and despite possessing a very fertile imagination I can't imagine being a 2D creature and I don't believe it is really possible to do so other than merely having faith in it as an idea in order to avoid the troubling paradoxes that present themselves when attempting to explain the observed evidence with known physics.

Interesting though the topic is to my knowledge no evidence exists to support the notion of extra dimensions so they currently remain the domain of science fiction.

Mathematically I can write down 3 coordinates (x,y,z) to represent a position in space. I can very easily then add another supposed dimension by writing down (x,y,z,a) but this does not evidence the existence of my extra dimension!

The surface of a balloon is not 2D (other than as a mathematical construct), it has a thickness without which it could not support the pressure of the gas contained within. A circular ring does have a boundary that clearly delineates it from everything around it that is not a ring. All objects have boundaries. A 2D object is solely a mathematical construct that can be used for example to create illusory drawings of impossible objects by applying false perspective.

The potential existence of an extra dimension that is "too tightly wrapped up on itself to be visible" can be disproved by considering a line of thickness equal to the size of the dimension passing through it and thus causing its existence as a separate dimension to collapse.

I can't imagine living in an infinite volume space that is expanding. I can however imagine living in an infinite space within which the region where I exist is expanding relative to an infinite volume space. Such a region could be permanently cut off from any neighbouring region of space due to the inability of any particle to travel with a vector that would permit it to arrive anywhere within the boundaries of our observable universe.

 

[bapowell]

The question is no more nonsensical and self-contradictory than the mathematically extrapolated notion of a singularity existing within nothing and I assume from your response that you are simply puzzled by the paradoxes that follow. The theoretical singularity at the centre of a black hole is surrounded by a galaxy so by analogy with the theoretical singularity from which our observable universe was spawned it is rational to assume something outside of that theoretical singularity. Indeed it is irrational to envisage a singularity that exists within nothing. Since current maths and physics break down at the singularity the state of the universe at that time is currently open to debate and interpretation.

But you say so yourself that there actually is no singularity -- that it is a place at which the physical reality ceases to be accurately described by the mathematical model. Indeed, the physics of the big bang itself -- the event at t=0 -- is unknown (you can interpret and debate all you like, but that's not science). That said, cosmological observations do not support the idea that a point-source was the originating event; in other words, there was no pointlike singularity that exploded into the universe. Rather, the big bang effectively happened everywhere at once, perhaps in an already infinite universe. Because of this, it makes no sense to puzzle about things external to the big bang, as if it occurred in a pre-existing ambient space. That's simply not consistent with the observations, and it's not theoretically necessary.

 

[bapowell]

Jonathan, I'm getting the impression that you are not here to improve your understanding, but rather to be critical and pick apart everyone's explanations. And, sadly, it's causing you to miss some good stuff.

Hi Marcus, yes I have come across these concepts many times and despite possessing a very fertile imagination I can't imagine being a 2D creature and I don't believe it is really possible to do so other than merely having faith in it as an idea in order to avoid the troubling paradoxes that present themselves when attempting to explain the observed evidence with known physics.

Interesting though the topic is to my knowledge no evidence exists to support the notion of extra dimensions so they currently remain the domain of science fiction.

Marcus is trying to get you to use a lower-dimensional analogy to better understand our 3D universe! He's not literally entertaining the possibility of 2D beings...surely you understand this? Surely you understand that the balloon analogy is not meant to actually convey that the universe is made of rubber and has a tiny thickness? You say you've entertained these ideas with your "fertile imagination" but I think maybe you've missed the point of the lesson.

The potential existence of an extra dimension that is "too tightly wrapped up on itself to be visible" can be disproved by considering a line of thickness equal to the size of the dimension passing through it and thus causing its existence as a separate dimension to collapse.

Nobody is talking about extra dimensions.

 

[Drakkith]

Thread locked for moderation.

 

[Drakkith]

This thread was fine until around post #31. Since then it has degenerated into several people throwing around their opinions and giving information without understanding the very basics of cosmology. Since the original question has already been answered several times over, thread locked.