What are the consequences of living between two crises in Jordan?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the complex socio-political situation in Jordan, particularly in relation to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and the American invasion of Iraq. Participants express their feelings about the impact of these crises on Jordanian identity and regional dynamics, touching on themes of brotherhood among Arabs and Muslims, the role of leadership in Iraq, and perceptions of the United States.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express a sense of shared suffering among Jordanians due to the crises in neighboring countries, particularly the loss of life and the impact of foreign interventions.
  • There are assertions about the concept of brotherhood among Muslims and Arabs, with some arguing that this transcends national and racial identities.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of tolerance and acceptance of differences, while another challenges the effectiveness of this principle in practice.
  • Disagreements arise over the responsibility for suffering in Iraq, with some attributing blame to Saddam Hussein and others to the actions of the US and the UN.
  • A participant questions the effectiveness of merely condemning Saddam without supporting his removal, suggesting a need for action to alleviate suffering among Iraqis.
  • There are references to the historical context of US relations with Arab nations and the implications of Iraq's potential rise in power.
  • Some participants express frustration with perceived hypocrisy in the US's approach to foreign policy and its treatment of different ethnic groups.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express a range of views on the issues at hand, with no clear consensus emerging. Disagreements persist regarding the roles of various leaders and the implications of foreign interventions.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference complex historical and political contexts, including the effectiveness of international programs like the oil-for-food initiative, without reaching a definitive conclusion on their impacts.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring Middle Eastern politics, the dynamics of Arab identity, and the implications of foreign intervention in regional conflicts.

Zargawee
With no introductions or anything , I Wanted to tell everyone that we JORDANIANS are living between two crises , the Israeli occupation to the Palestinian lands , and the American Invasion on Iraq ...

So we are Excused .. It's really bad to have two brothers dying everyday by some mercyless killers lookinf for Money and Oil ...
 
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Why do you not consider me your brother?
 
What gives peace and supportance to me is considered a brother ...
also , ALL Muslims are Brothers and All Arabs are brothers ...

then Comes the brotherhood that we're from the same first father Adam .
 
Originally posted by Zargawee
What gives peace and supportance to me is considered a brother ...
also , ALL Muslims are Brothers and All Arabs are brothers ...

then Comes the brotherhood that we're from the same first father Adam .
First Race, second Roots?
 
First Race, second Roots?
Yes ... Being a Muslim is more inportant from bring an Arab
 
Well then, my brother Zargawee, regardless of what you have been told, or believe, about the US, our citizens only wish that everyone in the world could live in peace. We don't care what is your race, your skin color, or your religion. We have learned something many Arabs have not. We have learned that being tolerant and accepting of peoples differences is the correct thing to do. While it may seem at times we have difficulty practicing what we preach, we do know that this is the correct path.

I apologize if you consider Saddam Hussein and his loyalists your brother. In the US we regard him as a butcher. We will destroy him. We may not kill him personally, but we will render him irrelevant. If it turns out that the US was wrong, and that Saddam is really a benevolent and loved leader of the Iraqi people, I will kiss my brother's a$$.
 
Didn't I Say this before ? LET SADDAM BURN IN HELL !
I Hate This person ..

But who I consider as brothers are the Iraqi citizens ...
You Konw that Saddam, Bush and Kofi Anan are the poeple behind the death of 50 000 Iraqi infant yearly ? Those are murders , the first two are boys with toes , the last one is just a dumb head who does what he asked to do !

We muslims (Specially Arabs) believes in equality never mind where you're from , This is clearing appeared in Islam when poeple pray , the stand in lines and pray , no matter where they are from , or what language they talk , or what was their past religion ...
And Arabs also believes in equality , as you can see , the arab unity Includes Lebannon , which is not a muslim country ( it's president is Chiristian ) , but we respect it as an Arab country .

Your Points are invalid ... To before a long time , USA had problems with dealing with Black-skined residents ...
And this problem stand stills ( As I was told from one of my relatives in USA )
 
I heard the Jordan situation, between Iraq and Israel, described as being "Stuck between Iraq and a hard place".
 
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Who said that ?
 
  • #10
King Abdullah II
 
  • #11
Originally posted by Zargawee
Didn't I Say this before ? LET SADDAM BURN IN HELL !
I Hate This person ..
I stand corrected.

But who I consider as brothers are the Iraqi citizens ...
As do I.
You Konw that Saddam, Bush and Kofi Anan are the poeple behind the death of 50 000 Iraqi infant yearly ?
This is not true. The oil for food program would have easily provided plenty of food and medicine for needy Iraqis. It was Saddam that abused the program and denied his people the benefits from it. Admittedly, the US and the UN are both guilty of being ignorant of Saddams unwillingness to follow any rules but his own.

We muslims (Specially Arabs) believes in equality never mind where you're from , This is clearing appeared in Islam when poeple pray , the stand in lines and pray , no matter where they are from , or what language they talk , or what was their past religion ...
And Arabs also believes in equality , as you can see , the arab unity Includes Lebannon , which is not a muslim country ( it's president is Chiristian ) , but we respect it as an Arab country .
That is good to hear.

Your Points are invalid ... To before a long time , USA had problems with dealing with Black-skined residents ...
And this problem stand stills ( As I was told from one of my relatives in USA )
If you will read my original post carefully, you will see that I clearly stated that while we know the difference between right and wrong, we are not perfect in implimenting it. Here is the original statement...

"We have learned that being tolerant and accepting of peoples differences is the correct thing to do. While it may seem at times we have difficulty practicing what we preach, we do know that this is the correct path."
 
  • #12
Zargawee, if you dislike Saddam so much and you wish to see the suffering of your Iraqi "brothers" stopped, why don't you support his immediate removal? It seems to me that you are standing in the way of the rescue of your "brothers."
 
  • #13
King Abdullah II
That prooves that this is offecial problem.



Zargawee, if you dislike Saddam so much and you wish to see the suffering of your Iraqi "brothers" stopped, why don't you support his immediate removal? It seems to me that you are standing in the way of the rescue of your "brothers."
I aksed for that ! or you want me to go to iraq and grab Saddam from his shirt , and put a good person instead of him ? Don't be ridiculous !

This is not true. The oil for food program would have easily provided plenty of food and medicine for needy Iraqis. It was Saddam that abused the program and denied his people the benefits from it. Admittedly, the US and the UN are both guilty of being ignorant of Saddams unwillingness to follow any rules but his own.
Sounds true ... But I think that Bush is now giulty for his DIRECT killing of children ... also that dumb head Anan , for keeping shut up and looking at this war ... I hop e he get burnt with his Security consle !

If you will read my original post carefully, you will see that I clearly stated that while we know the difference between right and wrong, we are not perfect in implimenting it. Here is the original statement...
Point Cleared :wink:
 
  • #14
Originally posted by Zargawee
I aksed for that ! or you want me to go to iraq and grab Saddam from his shirt , and put a good person instead of him ? Don't be ridiculous!
Not to worry. If you don't want to do it yourself (for whatever reason), we'll do it for you :)
 
  • #15
No thanks ... I Have more important things to do .. :wink:
 
  • #16
Originally posted by Zargawee
No thanks ... I Have more important things to do .. :wink:
Too busy straping TNT to your kids to take down a dictator in your midst?

Ok, maybe uncalled for but nevertheless, how important is it to you? Clearly many see the US as enough of a threat to fly planes into our buildings, but don't see Saddam as enough of a threat (even after admitting he's at the very least a threat to your "brothers") to do anything about him. WHY NOT?!?
 
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  • #17
"many" is 19 eh?
 
  • #18
Please kyleb, just exactly how many people do you think are in Al Qeada's network?

Look at the big picture.
 
  • #19
And nearly all (all?) those 19 were from Saudi Arabia, a repressive aristocracy that is also now our ally and friend.
 
  • #20
You pick the biggest guy on the cell block and you attempt to beat the crap out of him. In this way you will surely instill fear into the rest of the inmates, as they will see you as being obviously out of your mind, and you might even befriend and gain the respect of the biggest guy on the block. This might be the strategy.

What is going to happen to the rest of the Arab countries when Iraq surpasses them in economic power and is also a friend to the US.
 
  • #21
Originally posted by Alias
Please kyleb, just exactly how many people do you think are in Al Qeada's network?

Look at the big picture.

well there are, or rather were at this point, quite a few in Al Qeada. but i only see 19 that chose to "fly planes into our buildings"; so you can try to make your "picture" as big as you want, but i prefer reality.
 
  • #22
It's called intent. We put people in jail for that sort of thing here in the states. For example 'attempted murder'. I could be wrong about that.

Who are you defending anyway? And whose observations do you base 'your' reality on. What does your consensus look like? Do they regularly get fired upon with rubber bullets? Are they emotionally weak? Did they not have a proper male role model in their lives? How does this incessant bleeding of your heart originate? What is it's source? Can we harness it to produce something useful? Electricity perhaps?

Everybody sing!
hmmmmmm...

There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me
 
  • #23
sorry Alias, you seem to have confused me for someone like you. i don't subscribe to any particular consensus; and i don't play roles either, so i have no need for role-models. as for jailing people for intent, we do when we have clear evidence; but this whole guilty by association thing tends to go in and out of fad and it sucks worse than disco in my opinion.
 
  • #24
*deleted because of Physics Forums Guideline violations*
 
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  • #25
Originally posted by russ_watters
Too busy straping TNT to your kids to take down a dictator in your midst?

Ok, maybe uncalled for but nevertheless, how important is it to you? Clearly many see the US as enough of a threat to fly planes into our buildings, but don't see Saddam as enough of a threat (even after admitting he's at the very least a threat to your "brothers") to do anything about him. WHY NOT?!?

Lestin to me you fanatic ... We are not murders ! we are not criminals !
BUT WE DEFEND OUR BELEIVES WITH OUR LIFE !

Al-Qa'eda members are not all muslims , they are some muslims who were deceived .
For killing Saddam , Poeple should do that , not we ... If you know Islam , it says that Help comes if the person (or poeple) are not able to help themselves ... like the current situation in Iraq , they can't protect themselves from the US bombs above their heads !

Before talking stupidly ... Know what you're talking about !
 
  • #26
Originally posted by damgo
And nearly all (all?) those 19 were from Saudi Arabia, a repressive aristocracy that is also now our ally and friend.

Acually , not all of them were saudi , some of them were egyptians , and one was from the Yemen . NONE WERE IRAQIES
 
  • #27
Originally posted by Zargawee
Lestin to me you fanatic ... We are not murders ! we are not criminals !
BUT WE DEFEND OUR BELEIVES WITH OUR LIFE !
So let me just make sure I have that clear. It is *NOT* murder to strap a bomb to your chest and blow up a bus full of civilians or fly a plane into a building full of civilians? And I'm the fanatic?

For killing Saddam , Poeple should do that , not we ... If you know Islam , it says that Help comes if the person (or poeple) are not able to help themselves ... like the current situation in Iraq , they can't protect themselves from the US bombs above their heads !
Thats self contradictory. People should help themselves but we should help people who are not able to help themselves? We *ARE* helping people who can't help themselves.

Also, you are implying that we are targeting civilians. We are not. Saddam is the only one right now who is purposely killing Iraqi civilians (in a number of ways, too).

Your view of reality is upside-down.

Quick question: If a pregnant woman blows herself up killing some "infidels" is her unborn baby martyred too? And does the woman go to heaven for being a martyr or hell for murdering her baby?
 
  • #28
Zargawee, Russ...time out. Zargawee, you are calling names. Take a break, and come back to this when you will be less emotional. Russ, in the meantime don't egg him on. Neither of you two is hearing each other at all.
 
  • #29
Originally posted by Zero
Russ, in the meantime don't egg him on. Neither of you two is hearing each other at all.
Zero, I'm hearing him loud and clear. The problem is what I am hearing sickens me. Regardless, I won't be calling him names. I can always keep it civil.
 
  • #30
Originally posted by Zargawee
.. If you know Islam , it says that Help comes if the person (or poeple) are not able to help themselves ... like the current situation in Iraq , they can't protect themselves from the US bombs above their heads !

I don't think they could protect themselves from Saddam or his henchmen either, so given that, one could equally say that the bombs over their heads is the help.

The Iraqis have had to deal with 25 years of utter obscenity, the obscenity of tyranny, the obscenity of frequent wars of choice by the regime, the obscenity of oppression, the obscenity of ABSOLUTE disrespect of their HR, the obscenity of mass murders, the utter obscenity of attempts to genocide, what obscenity have they been spared by the bloody Saddam, mates and collaborators of the regime, outside and inside of Iraq?

They'll have to weigh when this finishes and in view of the results, not yet in place, what obscenities were more acceptable to them and if the price was right, unbearably high or ridiculously low. It's time to wait for them to talk and don't usurpate their voices in statements. You and I and the rest of us, simply DON'T KNOW and are making it up for the occasion and for the lyrics/rhetoric of it.
 

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