Black Holes, Quantum Gravity and the Curvature of spacetime

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between Quantum Gravity and the Curvature of Spacetime, exploring theoretical concepts, implications for black holes, and the integration of quantum theory with general relativity. Participants express interest in understanding how these ideas interconnect and the challenges involved in reconciling classical and quantum descriptions of gravity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the relevance of Quantum Gravity to the curvature of spacetime and seek an overview of background independence in quantum theory.
  • One participant discusses the classical understanding of spacetime curvature as established by Einstein, emphasizing the geometric nature of gravity and its implications for matter.
  • Another participant highlights the historical testing of General Relativity and its acceptance as a dynamic theory of spacetime, while noting that it behaves approximately like Newtonian spacetime under normal conditions.
  • There are mentions of the challenges in combining the background independence of General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics, with references to works by Smolin and the Perimeter Institute.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the feasibility of successfully merging these theories, suggesting ongoing difficulties in achieving a coherent quantum description of gravity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of curiosity and skepticism regarding the integration of Quantum Gravity and General Relativity. While there is some agreement on the foundational concepts of spacetime curvature, significant disagreement exists on the potential for successfully merging these theories and the implications of Quantum Gravity.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of introducing quantum descriptions into a classical framework, highlighting the need for a deeper understanding of both theories before making connections. There are unresolved questions regarding the mathematical and conceptual steps necessary for this integration.

  • #31
RandallB said:
“Quantum Gravity” - Fundamentally based a quantum approach, utilizing QM (its derivatives or equivalents) and uses the Standard Model including the idea of particle exchange of gravitons (yet to be discovered) to account for gravity.
I hope you don't mean that "Quantum Gravity" implies making use of gravitons. There are other approaches too, such as described in
R. Van Nieuwenhove, Quantum Gravity : a Hypothesis, Europhysics Letters, 17 (1), pp. 1-4 (1992)), or in Puthoff's polarizable vacuum concept. Such approaches are based on considering gravitation not as a fundamental force but as derived from modified quantum vacuum properties.
 
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  • #32
DocN:” Can one say that at the singularity, we would find such a transition from GR to quantum states? It appears that even the black hole itself is circular in shape--still a classical formation?”

juan_rod:” is it really an impossibility to say that classical and quantum physics are both one and the same; a thing of perspective rather than two different things? i am reminded of the geometrical classic Flatland and Spaceland books.”

Let me give an example (and the additional argument that it is worth to know electrodynamics):
The peaceful coexistence of quantum and classical physics is well-known in the quasi-classical approximation. One obtains that according to W. Heisenberg UR number of particles is the self-adjoint operator with continuous spectrum (P.Carruthers, M. Nieto, Rev. Mod. Phys., 40,411
(1968)). Indeed, you should use non self-adjoint operators which are relevant in QM as was demonstrated by V.A. Fock many years ago.
 
  • #33
Why does the curvature of spacetime cause matter to experience gravity?
 
  • #34
Blackhaven said:
Why does the curvature of spacetime cause matter to experience gravity?

That was the central idea of the theory of general relativity that appeared in 1915. We have a whole forum at PF that is devoted to relativity (both special 1905 and general 1915). You might try asking your question in that forum.
 
  • #35
Blackhaven said:
Why does the curvature of spacetime cause matter to experience gravity?
Actually: curvature of worldlines would be better, since curved spacetime is a misnomer.
Since spacetime consist of events that combine a position and a time based on the state of an observer, the worldline of the observer is straight (by definition). The observer isn't a person, but the zero point of the frame of reference.
That's a free-falling observer. Seen from there other worldlines are curved, because of gravity.
The reason is - in my eyes- something different and the curvature is an outcome and not the cause.
(Personally I see gravity as an effect of interactions of 'parallel lightcones' that interact and deflect the other one, since there seems to be some kind of rotation with these cones.)
 

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