Box being pulled up a slope with friction

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    Force Friction Slope
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dynamics of a box being pulled up a slope with friction, focusing on the forces acting on the box and the conditions under which it may move up or down the slope. Participants explore the implications of friction, gravitational forces, and an external pulling force, considering various scenarios of motion and rest.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the force of friction acts up the slope when the box is sliding down, while it acts down the slope when the box is moving up.
  • There is uncertainty about whether the pulling force F is sufficient to overcome gravity, leading to different equations for the box moving up or down the slope.
  • Participants propose that a universal equation may not be feasible without first determining the net force and the direction of motion.
  • One participant suggests solving the problem in stages, considering cases where the net force is insufficient to overcome friction, which may leave the box at rest.
  • Another point raised is the difference between static and kinetic friction coefficients, which complicates the analysis and solution process.
  • Some participants recommend performing a static analysis to determine the friction force required to prevent slipping, with the sign indicating the direction of friction.
  • There is a suggestion to treat the friction force as an unknown variable in the equations, allowing for flexibility in analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on how to approach the problem, with no consensus on a single method or equation to apply universally. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best strategy for analyzing the forces involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations such as the dependence on the definitions of static and kinetic friction, the need for initial conditions, and the complexity introduced by varying coefficients of friction.

alikim
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If I solve a problem of a box sliding down a slope or standing still on the slope, the force of friction is directed up along the slope.

What happens if there is a force F pulling the box up along the slope, but it's unknown if it overcomes gravity and box is moving up or it only slows the box down and it is still sliding down.

Since the force of friction is directed opposite the movement, is it directed up or down?

If the box is moving down:
ma = mg sinθ - F - μmg cosθ, a >= 0

If the box is moving up:
ma = mg sinθ - F + μmg cosθ, a < 0

Is there a way to write one "universal" equation to solve? Or do I check a conditions first, and then choose which equation to use?
 
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alikim said:
If I solve a problem of a box sliding down a slope or standing still on the slope, the force of friction is directed up along the slope.

What happens if there is a force F pulling the box up along the slope, but it's unknown if it overcomes gravity and box is moving up or it only slows the box down and it is still sliding down.
You have to calculate the net force to determine the direction in which motion is possible, before including the forces that resist motion.
alikim said:
Since the force of friction is directed opposite the movement, is it directed up or down?

If the box is moving down:
ma = mg sinθ - F - μmg cosθ, a >= 0

If the box is moving up:
ma = mg sinθ - F + μmg cosθ, a < 0

Is there a way to write one "universal" equation to solve? Or do I check a conditions first, and then choose which equation to use?
You have to solve the problem in two stages. Note that there is the intermediate case where the net force is insufficient to overcome friction, in which case the box remains at rest; and, the friction force is not the maximum.

Moreover, it's often the case that the coefficient of static friction is greater than the coefficient of kinetic friction, which adds another layer of complexity - and another step in the solution.
 
alikim said:
If I solve a problem of a box sliding down a slope or standing still on the slope, the force of friction is directed up along the slope.

What happens if there is a force F pulling the box up along the slope, but it's unknown if it overcomes gravity and box is moving up or it only slows the box down and it is still sliding down.

Since the force of friction is directed opposite the movement, is it directed up or down?

If the box is moving down:
ma = mg sinθ - F - μmg cosθ, a >= 0

If the box is moving up:
ma = mg sinθ - F + μmg cosθ, a < 0

Is there a way to write one "universal" equation to solve? Or do I check a conditions first, and then choose which equation to use?
Initially assume the box has zero acceleration and the friction is an unknown quantity. Solve for the friction force using the equations of statics. This is the friction force needed to prevent slip. Its sign will tell you which way the friction force has to point. if the magnitude of this force is greater than the max friction available then do a sliding analysis with the max friction available but pointing in the direction you just found.
 
alikim said:
If I solve a problem of a box sliding down a slope or standing still on the slope, the force of friction is directed up along the slope.

What happens if there is a force F pulling the box up along the slope, but it's unknown if it overcomes gravity and box is moving up or it only slows the box down and it is still sliding down.

Since the force of friction is directed opposite the movement, is it directed up or down?

If the box is moving down:
ma = mg sinθ - F - μmg cosθ, a >= 0

If the box is moving up:
ma = mg sinθ - F + μmg cosθ, a < 0

Is there a way to write one "universal" equation to solve? Or do I check a conditions first, and then choose which equation to use?
Write the general equation with the friction force input as unknown variable eg F_f. It does not matter which way F_f points as it is an algebraic variable that can have a + or - value. Perform a static analysis with all derivatives =0. Solve this equation for F_f. The answer will be the friction force needed to prevent motion. If the answer is positive you drew it in the correct direction on your FBD. If negative it points the other way. Take the absolute value of F_f and compare with mu R. If less than mu_static R the block sticks of greater, set F_f to +- mu_static R and solve the time dependent problem. This methodology applies to all friction problems.
 

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