Burning Salt Water: The Future of Fuel?

[rewebster]

Well Kurdt, to be fair, John Kanzius hasn't made any claims concerning this processs being 100% efficient.

In consequence, your drawing a comparison between his discovery and such 'perpetual motion machines' is a bit uncharitable.

and how 'efficient' is an average motor vehicle, or the 'source to use' of the electrical power supply that most of us use compared to this process?

 

[Astronuc]

Any process is beneficial or advantageous provided it is more efficient, i.e. produces more mechanical energy for a given thermal/electrical energy consumed.

The objective in producing hydrogen, in this case, or other storable fuel is that it can be used for transportation. Using an inefficient process to produce hydrogen, but then to burn it at the source makes no sense whatsoever. If this was the only energy process, then one would be burning a few grams of hydrogen to make 1 gram hydrogen.

If the prime source of energy is solar power, then it might make sense, but then if there is a more efficient process, e.g. electrolysis, then it makes not sense to produce microwaves to disscociate water.

The problem of what to do with the side reactions - Cl₂, HCl, HOCl, NaOCl, . . . . - was not even addressed.

 

[Aquafire]

Any process is beneficial or advantageous provided it is more efficient, i.e. produces more mechanical energy for a given thermal/electrical energy produced.

Yes, and what matters in the long run is the economic cost; relative to whatever deliverable and usable energy is produced.

With the greatest respect to my fellow posters, I am not interested in arguing whether the salt water is a fuel, or whether it is hydrogen being burned, or something else.

What I am looking at it is the economics point of view.

If it turns out that the cost per joule of usable energy produced is far less than that of a similar joule of usable energy coming from a barrel of oil, then it has an economic benefit. Furthermore, if the cost to the environment (including costing in waste disposal etc) is far less than our current systems, then that makes it even more economically useful.

Beyond all the other matters, this is the lens through which I am wanting to examine the discovery.

Thanks

Aquafire

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It cannot compete with oil because the energy for that came from the sun long ago.

This is not a fuel source. At most it is using water as an energy carrier [which ultimately is true of oil as well, but we didn't supply the energy to make the oil]. The meaningful test is whether or not this is more efficient than other means of generating hydrogen, such as by using electrolysis. It's a no brainer to make hydrogen burn as it's produced.

 

[Chi Meson]

If it turns out that the cost per joule of usable energy produced is far less than that of a similar joule of usable energy coming from a barrel of oil, then it has an economic benefit. Furthermore, if the cost to the environment (including costing in waste disposal etc) is far less than our current systems, then that makes it even more economically useful.

That's is what we have been saying. And it is quite clear, by simply knowing that microwaves (~60% efficient in production) were used to cause a "candle" that has so far done no more than power a "Stirling" engine (~20% efficient, if that), that so far this method is not economically useful, yet.

It might be made so that it is less costly to environment, and I am hoping that it is; but it is doubtful that it will achieve a "far less costly" threshold. I'd be grateful for "a little bit less."

 

[Aquafire]

That's is what we have been saying. And it is quite clear, by simply knowing that microwaves (~60% efficient in production) were used to cause a "candle" that has so far done no more than power a "Stirling" engine (~20% efficient, if that), that so far this method is not economically useful, yet.

It might be made so that it is less costly to environment, and I am hoping that it is; but it is doubtful that it will achieve a "far less costly" threshold. I'd be grateful for "a little bit less."

Thankyou Chi Meson,

I appreciate your succintness and clarity.

If it in fact turns out to be flotsam on the ocean of discovery...so be it.

But until we have the statistics at hand, none of us can be absolutely sure.

I agree with Ivan in that from what he says, it is highly unlikey to be more afficient than electrolysis.

Still, until the facts and all the data is laid squarely on the table for all to see...we must keep an open mind...

...even whilst being healthfully skeptical.

Cheers

Aquafire

 

[russ_watters]

Beyond all the other matters, this is the lens through which I am wanting to examine the discovery.

Looking at it through rose-colored glasses will not turn it into a rose. You cannot examine the cost per unit energy of a process which produces no energy.

 

[rewebster]

well--even if you could get just O2 out of it---just THAT may be great for space exploration or extended moon/mars exploration

 

[Aquafire]

Looking at it through rose-colored glasses will not turn it into a rose.

Misquoting Shakespeare won't turn you into a poet either...


Aquafire

 

[russ_watters]

That isn't a Shakespeare quote/paraphrase.

see through rose-colored glasses Also, look through rose-colored glasses. Take an optimistic view of something, as in Kate enjoys just about every activity; she sees the world through rose-colored glasses, or If only Marvin wouldn’t be so critical, if he could look through colored glasses once in a while, he’d be much happier. The adjectives rosy and rose-colored been used in the sense of "hopeful" or “optimistic" since the 1700s; the current idiom dates from the 1850s...

http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/epub/ahdidioms.shtml

It has nothing to do with the quote you are thinking of: ""What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

 

[Chi Meson]

"Rose is a rose is a rose"

--Mr. Gertrude Stein

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Has this been tried on the Cuyahoga?

 

[baywax]

That isn't a Shakespeare quote/paraphrase. http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/epub/ahdidioms.shtml

It has nothing to do with the quote you are thinking of: ""What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

Gertrude Stein, inventor of the cubist movement. "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose".

 

[rewebster]

Gertrude Stein, inventor of the cubist movement. "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose".

what's his name?---picasa, picadora, picante, sargasso---seems like one of those??---I thought whoever() he was had something a little more to do with it--hmmm?---

------------------------------

back to the thread topic:

with all of the physicists, chemists, etc. here--has no one tried this yet?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Gertrude Stein, inventor of the cubist movement.

She might be called the transporter of the cubist movement to literature, what's his face the painter was the inventor of the cubist movement.

 

[Chi Meson]

with all of the physicists, chemists, etc. here--has no one tried this yet?

The machine that creates the very specific frequencies of radio/microwaves is not in everyone's lab. You can't make one from a kitchen microwave, for example. I'm sure that several have been purchased recently. I'm guessing the machine would be, what.. about 10 to 20 thousand dollars?

 

[baywax]

She might be called the transporter of the cubist movement to literature, what's his face the painter was the inventor of the cubist movement.

Gertrude Stein (February 3, 1874 – July 27, 1946) was an American writer who was a catalyst in the development of modern art and literature. ...Throughout her lifetime, Stein cultivated significant tertiary relationships with ultimately famous members of the avant garde artistic and literary worlds of her time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Stein

I've been lectured by Art Historians about how Gertrude's poem "a rose is a rose...etc" inspired the cubist movement.

I'm guessing the machine would be, what.. about 10 to 20 thousand dollars?

Today a good cubist painting will get you about 100 of those machines that emit the (alleged) proper frequency to burn water from the salt chuck.

 

[baywax]

Not so much as a destructive force, but as a source of pain, to disperse crowds. Very effective.

Have you ever been to a dance club? Aren't the sub-woofers putting out something similar to ELFs. People seem pretty attracted to those ;')

 

[rewebster]

Not so much as a destructive force, but as a source of pain, to disperse crowds. Very effective.

Have you ever been to a dance club? Aren't the sub-woofers putting out something similar to ELFs. People seem pretty attracted to those ;')

that's another reason why they serve alcohol --

 

[baywax]

that's another reason why they serve alcohol --

They serve alcohol at those places?! Do they distill it with microwaves?

 

[rewebster]

They serve alcohol at those places?! Do they distill it with microwaves?

you may be on (to) something!

-------------------------------

The machine that creates the very specific frequencies of radio/microwaves is not in everyone's lab. You can't make one from a kitchen microwave, for example. I'm sure that several have been purchased recently. I'm guessing the machine would be, what.. about 10 to 20 thousand dollars?

yeah--but still (segue/segway to topic) some one has to have one laying around in their storage room 'waiting' to be used

 

[russ_watters]

Gertrude Stein, inventor of the cubist movement. "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose".

That probably is a reference to the Shakespeare quote.

 

[russ_watters]

Have you ever been to a dance club? Aren't the sub-woofers putting out something similar to ELFs. People seem pretty attracted to those ;')

That's low frequency sound waves, not radio waves.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I've been lectured by Art Historians about how Gertrude's poem "a rose is a rose...etc" inspired the cubist movement.

Here is a site showing some cubist paintings by Picasso and others going back to 1907.
http://www.eyeconart.net/history/cubism.htm
The 'rose' line was written in 1913
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_is_a_rose_is_a_rose_is_a_rose

Even if your view of who invented cubism is correct, it is not commonly shared. I Googled for "stein invented cubism" with quotes included and got zero hits. Then I tried "picasso invented cubism" and got 139.

 

[Aquafire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Stein

I've been lectured by Art Historians about how Gertrude's poem "a rose is a rose...etc" inspired the cubist movement.

Interesting conjecture. But I suspect that given Gerty owned a fair number of Paul Cezannes' works, it wouldn't have been too hard for her to appreciate and see the paring down technique that Paul had introduced into his latter paintings.

From that perspective, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that Picasso having been invited on numerous occasions to dine with Gerty and Leo, may have found this a topic of discussion.

Sadly, the timelines are a little woolly, so who knows who ultimately influence who.

Cheers

Aquafire

 

[baywax]

Interesting conjecture. But I suspect that given Gerty owned a fair number of Paul Cezannes' works, it wouldn't have been too hard for her to appreciate and see the paring down technique that Paul had introduced into his latter paintings.

From that perspective, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that Picasso having been invited on numerous occasions to dine with Gerty and Leo, may have found this a topic of discussion.

Sadly, the timelines are a little woolly, so who knows who ultimately influence who.

Cheers

Aquafire

Ultimately it was the invention of the telegraph, telephone and related communications devices. These innovations (at the turn of the 20th century) rendered the whole world accessable to people and the boundaries of time differnences began to fall. One of the art historian put it like this: when you could talk to Paris at 4pm from Maine and it was 2am in France this was so astounding to the intellects of the time that the idea of simultaneous events (regardless of distance) began to emerge. Thus, the cubists did their best to portray the simultaneity of all events in their work. The results were varied but you may have heard of Marcel Du Champs' "Nude Descending The Staircase", a cubist work, and the criticisms that came from the American camps calling it "an explosion in a shingle factory".

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The results were varied but you may have heard of Marcel Du Champs' "Nude Descending The Staircase", a cubist work, and the criticisms that came from the American camps calling it "an explosion in a shingle factory".

And from other cubists for various reasons. It explodes in Phila, a few miles from me.

 

[baywax]

And from other cubists for various reasons. It explodes in Phila, a few miles from me.

I hadn't thought about other cubists bashing other cubists... typical...

sort of like high frequency radio waves bashing salt water... tumultuous.

 

[Erazman]

----warning---- Amateur post. Probably not worth reading. -----warning-----

How about a long tubing filled with water. The inside of the tubing would be made of a material to reflect radiowaves so that they continue passing through the water. Make the tubing long enough so that the radiowaves eventually become "spent". Would this be efficient? Or at least more efficient than electrolysis?

 

[Chi Meson]

You are proposing a resonant tube. Such a tube would select a single specific wavelength of the microwaves that are produced. It would not be necessary anyway, since water is very good at absorbing microwaves in the first place

 

[Hootenanny]

Welcome to the club Chi, have you been shown the secret handshake yet?

 

[Chi Meson]

I was in gold before, a while back, then my "contribution" ran out. The only reason I didn't re-contribute was due to an irrational mistrust of Paypal. I think the handshake has changed, though...I'm getting funny looks.