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Bush is dropping the I-Bomb (Immigration)

  1. May 17, 2007 #1
    If this goes through... say goodbye to the America you once knew.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. May 17, 2007 #2
    I agree. The Senate's proposal is disturbing. If this were passed, here's my analysis of what lies ahead:

    Big US corporations continue to outsource to low wage countries, moving offshore to avoid taxes. Washington's green light to cheap (illegal immigrant) labor drives down lower end wages for Americans, leaving many w/o jobs. Government steps in with more unemployment and welfare benfits for existing Americans, in addition to fronting welfare and social services for immigrants.

    US companies hire the illegal now legal immigrant lower wage workers, but soon the unions (with push from some Democrates) sign up many of these workers and push wages back up. Meanwhile, many low wage existing American workers have all but given up on work. Some American workers leave the US looking for better work propsects in Canada, EU, Middle East, and Central America. Big corporate pits the ever-increasing new immigrant low wage worker against existing workers. Labor laws are tested, and sentiments and trust amoung employees and emplorers hits historic lows. By 2015 or so, the US government suffers a major debt and fiscal crisis as median wage Americans have fled the country, and big corporate isn't paying enough taxes.

    Loyalty and trust evaporate. All the experts convene to try and understand what has happened. We go through years of schooling to avert such catastrophes. But legislators and businessmen, for enough money, find it very easy in dummying down. I suspect this is the critical FLAW in human nature, that is oddly not found in most animal species. Food for thought.
     
  4. May 18, 2007 #3
    People who illegaly cross the border are now rewarded for their effort. That will only stimulate more people to cross.

    Contrast that with a good foreign student who likes to work in the US using the legal channels, he has to join a lottery and possibly he will be rejected.

    Crime pays! That is the message that is given.
     
  5. May 18, 2007 #4
    All the more reason for me to continue making plans to move out of Texas. One would think that Spanish is the native language here anyway.
     
  6. May 18, 2007 #5
    The ironic part of this is that it will in no way deter border crosses. We will only be passing a law that makes their illegal status more complicated for us to enforce.

    Does anyone really think that they will show up to get their "I am here illegally" identification cards.

    And BTW companies are already hiring illegals in a manner that leaves the company legally off the hook. They contract out their labor source to a a third party. The illegals work for and are paid by the third party.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2007
  7. May 19, 2007 #6
    It is strange how they make it hardest for legal immigrants here to immigrate here the the honest way--I heard about the H1-B lottery this year. The Indian outsourcing comapnies have abused the visas to hire workers temporarily here who learn the business and go back to their country--read letters sent by Senator Durbin and Grassley to nine companies asking about H1-B fraud. How do you think they are growing at 30 percent per year? For a while, I was a supporter of the growth in India-but when I read about how their major IT companies are doing H1-B fraud, I was really disappointed. The fact that the H1-B visas are abused and American companies are not being able to hire tech and engineering people they want onshore because the visas are mostly going to foreign outsourcing companies (7/10 visas) and are closed off on the first day and fall to random lottery clearly means that they are not being used for what they were originally intended. Now they want to increase the number, without addressing the abuse by outsourcing companies--. The reality is that in this age of globalization businesses will probably move offshore to cut costs regardless if they are unable to hire who they want here onshore--businesses just want profits anyway. Forget illegal immigration which has always been a mess- even legal immigration has fallen victim to abuse.
    Canada and Australia do not have problems with illegal immigration. Why here? The problem is not the illegal immigrants because it is human nature to go where there is more opportunity but the laws which allow it to happen. If you do not want illegal immigration make sure the laws are obeyed by employers but if you allow people to come in and make profits out of those people by paying them low wages to do jobs no one wants to do-then the result is you have to deal with the problem. One cannot just have the profits and not deal with the problem.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2007
  8. May 19, 2007 #7
    Time to Bring the God Argument to Illegal Immigration

    The Bush elite and Democrat spin machines are trying to coin illegal immigration into something other than it is, an outright philosophical and Constitutional "lie" on its face, followed by layers of knowingly incorrect facts. In consideration, I believe it is time to bring the "God argument" into the debate. This reference was pivotol in the discussions that led to abolishing slavery, and later establishing the Civil Rights Act of the 1960s.

    The God argument specifies truthfulness, yet compassion. Discipline and the adherence to rules, yet it encourages opportunity and freedom. The foregoing are widely intertwined into the realities of illegal immigration. But, the most central point to a U.S. solution should be in WHY are they entering the U.S. illegally?

    Are they entering fleeing for their lives? The facts say "no." Do they feel economically oppressed in their homeland? The reports say "yes." If so, WHO is economically oppressing them? The facts suggest it is their own homeland government and business, and even themselves through their own decisions. Are they honest and God-fearing? The facts are contentious - high levels of deception in identification, work, money, and receiving U.S. benefits suggest they are "not" honest. As much as is reported on this widespread deception - they find broad political support from the Catholic Church, that is unfounded in the Catholic Bible!

    I mean, the Church remains firmly opposed to gay and lesbian partnerships, birth control, abortion, and enumerable free-speech expressions, yet they continue to support mass unlawful "elective" migration of people from Mexico to the U.S. - most arguably based on "lies" and "sins." But - let's not leave out the U.S. big business influence. There is broad support in this "deception" as it provides cheap labor, and affords many a lavish lifestyle. Lest also not leave out the left wing of the Democrat party - they salivate at the thought of millions more eligible voters and POWER.

    I would argue that the first most compelling piece of truth in this mass migration can be found in a deep rooted belief (with encouragement by the likes of some California Hispanic politicians) that the Southwestern United States still in fact belongs to Mexico! And no one will openly discuss, or quell this dis-belief.

    The second most compelling truth is that when Mexico's poorest leave for the U.S., they release the Mexican government and wealthy businesses from their "God-endowed" responsibilities to them. Some in the U.S. argue it is a conscious "invasion." Either way, it amounts to a major deception and "sin," and should not find support in any modern religious dogma! Shame on the Catholic Church for their intentional twisting of personal responsibility!

    I will share that I am not biggoted or racist, and that I often play music and percussion with people of Mexican and Latin decent. But when there are specific laws and rules as to living, working, and receiving benefits from the U.S., I believe they should be followed - or we ALL will suffer.

    In closing - I believe the ultimate solution to illegal immigration lies in a better defining of personal and organizational responsibilities, and historically, such answers have come from a discussion of "God."

    I am not particularly a church-going person, rather more of an analyst. I write this out of compassion and concern.

    If interested, here's my home page.

    www.DolleCommunications.com
     
  9. May 22, 2007 #8
    Interesting issue. I say this because the Congress seems to be taking an action that finds very little support among the people. Republicans oppose it because they tend to believe in an "America for Americans." Democrats oppose it because it drives down wages. And yet here we have the Congress supporting the immigration bill. My guess is that this bill is being driven by big business interests and corporate greed. Apparently the representatives and senators are gambling that corporate political donations will offset public outcry. And this really points to a deficiency among American voters: they can make you vote for candidates you know are bad simply by showing you enough advertisements.

    Despite everything I've said, personally I support immigration from Mexico for completely unrelated reasons. And to think that I'm the right-wing evangelical Christian (...who votes Democrat).

    Actually, there is a fairly strong Christian theological defense for immigration, which I'd be happy to discuss if you're interested.
     
  10. May 22, 2007 #9
    It finds little support among the people because it is a back door amnesty program.

    It is partly driven by both sides because we have about 12 million illegals that we don't know what the heck to do with. Regardless, any form of amnesty is going to open the flood gates at the border.
     
  11. May 22, 2007 #10
    Again I don't personally oppose immigration from Mexico, but there's a much easier way to deal with the 12 million illegals without deporting them. If corporations are severely punished for hiring illegals, then they won't find employment in America, and they'll simply leave. It seems to me like the people who pose this as an either/or scenario (either deport them all or give them amnesty) are presenting a false dichotomy in order to make the immigration bill seem logical.
     
  12. May 22, 2007 #11
    Personally I do have a problem with immigration form Mexico because they are coming here illegally. We can not afford to solve Mexico's social problems. Illegals from central and South America have made up a large portion of the crossers in the past year. We can't afford to take on the social problems of Guatemala or El Salvador either.

    Arizona is heavily burdened by the medical care that we are legally required to give them. Our schools are filled with children who do not speak English.
    Current entrants are being smuggled in by the same people who smuggle drugs.

    As for employment most of them work in an underground economy that the average person doesn't see. They work in construction and as cooks and janitors. They work for companies who contract out to third parties to provide laborers.

    Naive people seem to think that they work in the agricultural sector. Why would the do that when they can make better money working construction jobs in Chicago or Cleveland.

    They do not want to blend into mainstream America. They are Mexican and proud of it. Mexico will always be their homeland. The one thing we do need to do urgently is to close the blasted border. And that doesn't seem to rank high in priority on any politicians list.
     
  13. May 24, 2007 #12
    deport all illegals
    simple quick and eazy
    no courts or appeals
    just throw them out

    use our army to guard our border
    shoot invaders

    only let in very high quality people
    not unskilled labor

    jail the officals who hire illegals
    no free medical care or rights for them
    no free citizenship for illegal born kids

    or the thrid world will take over
     
  14. May 24, 2007 #13

    ShawnD

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    Science Advisor

    You know, this one simple act would stop all illegal immigration in a heart beat.

    I think politicians just like to pretend issues are a lot more complicated than they are. Write up a few hundred page reports, fund a 3 month commission dealing with illegal immigration, check with the CIA, etc etc. How about take away the incentive to be an illegal immigrant?

    I hope to god these politicians never have children, because they've clearly shown that they can't relate cause and effect. No, humans just randomly do things and there's no link between actions and rewards. :rolleyes:
     
  15. May 24, 2007 #14
    Jail time for corporate officers who hire illegal aliens.

    Now somethings are going to change if and when we solve this problem, namely things will get much more expensive.
     
  16. May 24, 2007 #15
    This is the solution. Prosecute all the employers who hire illegal immigrants and you won't need to deport anyone. They'll leave on their own if they're not employed. And then employers will have to pay high enough wages to hire Americans.

    unlawflcombatnt

    Economic Populist Forum
     
  17. May 25, 2007 #16
    There is a bill to decrease the number of highly skilled people allowed to immigrate. The immigration laws here are just driven by a desire to win votes and not rationality or good logic. The latter makes you unpopular with certain voters.:wink:
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2007
  18. May 25, 2007 #17
    Actually that doesn't sound like such a bad idea. This is a bit off topic, but it's important to note that the more people emigrate from India to America, the fewer jobs there will be available for us. And since most people on this forum (presumably) are involved in science or technology fields, it might be in our best interest to decrease the number of highly skilled immigrants who can come here. Granted, this might be a bit hypocritical coming from me, seeing as how both my parents emigrated here from India. Nonetheless, even I can tell that shipping jobs to India and bringing people here to occupy the few jobs that remain can't be good for the economy.
     
  19. May 25, 2007 #18

    ShawnD

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    Science Advisor

    I think you're trying to tie 2 independent ideas together. What's good for people and what's good for the economy are not always the same thing. Just as an example, my province apparently has a good economy and a shortage of workers (McDonalds is paying $13/h just to get people to apply). What's good for the economy is to have lots of in-country immigration to my province, but that's bad for the people already living here because over the past 2-3 years the cost of rent has doubled. Relating that to what you are saying, it might be good for the economy to have a huge surge of skilled immigrants, but most Americans will not benefit from this "good economy".
     
  20. May 26, 2007 #19
    The criteria for immigration ought to be loyalty to the country, the ability to contribute economically and not be a burden to the country and the ability to assimilate into the culture.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  21. May 26, 2007 #20
    Yes, you're absolutely right that I misused the word "economy." What I ought to have said is that importing Indians to perform skilled labor will not be in Americans' best interest. Whether we ship jobs to India or bring Indians here (and we're doing both), the result is fewer jobs for American citizens. And as you observed, that might make the numbers look better on paper. But economic forecasts aren't much help to unemployed professionals.

    Going back to the Mexican illegal immigration issue, here's something I've always wondered about: why is cultural assimilation necessary? I agree that immigrants should be required to function in American culture. But I'm curious as to precisely what cultural assimilation entails, and why Mexican immigrants should be required to assimilate. Economic contribution and a minimum level of national loyalty seem reasonable, but why should Mexican immigrants (presumably legal ones) be required to be culturally American?
     
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