News Bush's Accomplishments: A Look at His 4-Year Term

[FaverWillets]

Since it was brought up earlier in the thread, and I guess is somehow already part of the topic... What do you think the Panama invasion was about?

For myself, of course, I am NOT a tree-hugging Democrat... and I am NOT an across the board pacifist... but in line with the apparent logic stream I am reading here about our invasion of Iraq and its mass graves... much like Kosovo before it, IF WE HAD TOLD THE UNITED NATIONS and our former European Allies that we needed an intervention in Iraq for the very similar reasons to our incursion in Kosovo I would not have had as many problems with this war...as it is, using the logic stream that I am reading here in favor of Bush and his band of merry war makers, shouldn't we not invade North Korea where mass graves also surely exist? What other country is next? I mean, I guess America is going to clean all the Dodge Cities around the world? That Saddam was a very bad boy is undisputable, but our reasons for this war were based at the United Nations ENTIRELY on the "evidence" stated in the record by both Colin Powell, and George W. Bush... PRE EMPTIVE WAR was needed and quickly in order to stop Saddam from a first strike..why do some out here in this forum insist on demanding transcripts or links to what most of us witnessed in live telecasts from the UN at the time they were said? Smoke and mirrors.. WHY ARE WE IN IRAQ? What can be done about this mess now that Babushka has created it for "personal" reasons... he DID say, "...well, he [Saddam] tried to kill my dad." Yes, and dad tried to kill Saddam FIRST. Sheesh. Is there any hope for America's long term future in the world anymore?

 

[Smurf]

I don't get it, why the panama quote?

 

[FaverWillets]

Since it was brought up earlier in the thread, and I guess is somehow already part of the topic... What do you think the Panama invasion was about?

Who cares? It's over now. WE DID put that little tin horn dictator in place and as JohnDubya has said here WE had to clean up a mess of our own making. BOTH political parties are nuts! But on rare occasions, ONE of them, doesn't matter which, screws up and does something right. Panama was right. So was Granada. Iraq II on the other hand was done for "reasons" that were stated in the public record that later turned out to be ...shall we say, incorrect [<-- just to be overly generous for the moment to Mr. Bush and his father's old Cabinet]. In mid stride, we found the use of the term Weapons of Mass Destruction suddenly ending as MASS GRAVES replaced it. We can't, as a nation, continue to direct our foreign policy with such incompetence.

 

[studentx]

Correct, it does not list the thousands in mass graves. I hope some day there will be an accurate count of such, if for no other reason than to provide some truth to those who may have lost family and such to Saddam.

Thousands? Hundreds of thousands.

 

[JohnDubYa]

If the murder rate is 4 per 100,000 per year in your town with police there, then all the police leave and the rate goes up to 40/100,000/year, does the police activity have anything at all to do with the murder rate?

I don't know. The situation needs to be examined further to nail down cause/effect.

But regardless, I don't see the relevance of your analogy.

However, that lack in no way nullifies the listing of all the other deaths listed there.

Without the context of what happened previous to our involvement, such body-count measurements are meaningless. How can we tell if the US involvement produced more deaths if we have no idea how many would have been killed anyway? It's like posting radiation measurements without a background count.

 

[JohnDubYa]

We should all keep in mind the horrific loss of life during the Iran-Iraq war, as well as due to the sanctions. A little perspective doesn't hurt.

Here is one estimate from an (admittedly) conservative Web page.

Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988) -- Figures widely disputed but probably between 500,000 - 1 million deaths; Iraqis 2-375,000, Iranians 3-600,000

1987-8 "Anfal Campaign" against the Kurds -- 200,000 according to the Kurds. 50-100,000 according to Human Right’s Watch. These include 6-7,000 deaths from chemical poisoning with mustard gas, Sarin and VX, in Halabja on or around 16 March 1988.


First Gulf War (incl. Operation Desert Storm) Jan - Feb 1991 -- 20-100,000 Iraqi soldiers and 2,300 civilian deaths. United States: 269 soldiers killed


1991 suppression of the Kurdish insurrection Northern Iraq -- Thousands of Iraqi Kurds died.

1991 suppression of the Marsh Arab rebellion Southern Iraq -- 30,000 to 60,000 deaths

Iraqi political executions -- An estimated 3,000 prisoners (mostly political) have been executed since 1997.

Deaths due to UN sanctions -- Initial reports (Lancet 1995) of sanctions causing the deaths of 567,000 Iraqi children were an overestimate. Recent estimates (Richard Garfield) for the cumulative total of excess deaths among children under five between 1990 and 2000 are approximately 350,000.

The US/UK liberation of Iraq April 2003 -- US and British forces 136 dead. Iraqi forces 2,320 (US estimates). Iraqi civilians 1,250 (Iraqi estimates).

These numbers will of course rise as the war goes on.

Jim Thornton, Nottingham, 12 April 2003

http://www.iconservatives.org.uk/recent_iraqi_war_deaths.htm

If the deaths due to the sanctions are anywhere close to being accurate, how can anyone condemn the loss of civilian life that ultimately led to the withdrawing of the sanctions?

 

[Adam]

Without the context of what happened previous to our involvement, such body-count measurements are meaningless.

Do you think those deaths are meaningless to their surviving spouses and relatives?

 

[Adam]

If the deaths due to the sanctions are anywhere close to being accurate, how can anyone condemn the loss of civilian life that ultimately led to the withdrawing of the sanctions?

You're looking at it the wrong way. The deaths caused by sanctions are also to be laid at the feet of those who made the sanctions.

 

[JohnDubYa]

You're looking at it the wrong way. The deaths caused by sanctions are also to be laid at the feet of those who made the sanctions.

I thought you liked the United Nations. By invading Iraq, George W. undid the sanctions imposed by the United Nations.

Do you think those deaths are meaningless to their surviving spouses and relatives?

Whose opinions matter more? Surviving relatives of those killed by the US Army, or surviving relatives of those killed by Saddam Hussein and the sanctions? Why did you only single out the former? (Possible bias, perhaps?)

 

[JohnDubYa]

By the way, Adam, I didn't say the DEATHS were meaningless. I said the body-counts (that is, statistics) were meaningless.

 

[Adam]

I thought you liked the United Nations. By invading Iraq, George W. undid the sanctions imposed by the United Nations.

The sanctions were driven from day one by the USA. The sanctions killed people. The invasion, part of which meant the end of those sanctions, killed people. None of it is good.

My opinion of the UN had been stated several times.

Whose opinions matter more? Surviving relatives of those killed by the US Army, or surviving relatives of those killed by Saddam Hussein and the sanctions? Why did you only single out the former? (Possible bias, perhaps?)

Both are important. And the reasons for discussing the deaths caused by the USA invasion have been covered extensively in many threads. Including this one.

 

[Adam]

By the way, Adam, I didn't say the DEATHS were meaningless. I said the body-counts (that is, statistics) were meaningless.

Ah. How nice that you can sit there thousands of KM away and separate the deaths from the numbers.

 

[JohnDubYa]

How nice that you can sit there thousands of KM away and separate the deaths from the numbers.

You really don't understand the meaning of statistics, do you?

The sanctions were driven from day one by the USA.

The sanctions were voted on, and imposed by, the United Nations.

 

[Smurf]

how pointless this thread has become.

just another battleground for the DubYa vs Smart people war.

 

[Adam]

Yeah, that's about it. :zzz:

 

[JohnDubYa]

Smurf, cheerleader tryouts ended two days ago.