Buy a sport bike sometime in the next year

[franznietzsche]

A low-side crash is when you are in a turn and lose traction with your front wheel. That causes the front tire to turn in and slide out, and you fall the short distance to the pavement and start sliding along. It's called the low-side because you fall the short distance to the ground on the side that you are leaning on. Low-side crashes generally don't hurt much, as long as you don't hit anything before you stop, and as long as you don't get run over, obviously.

A high-side crash generally hurts a lot. It usually would happen when you are in a turn and lose traction with your back tire. The back tire starts to slide out, you back off the gas (or brakes) and the tire catches traction, and the bike whips back into you fairly violently. This usually results in you getting launched over the high-side of the bike, which means you fall further and bounce a time or two before you start sliding. You are also on the wrong side of the bike as it chases you down the road.

Thats about what I thought.

My low-side crashes have generally happened because I misjudged the amount of traction available, and lost the front end in a turn. You can sometimes save a low-side by getting on the gas (we do this in dirtbike riding a lot), but it just depends on the conditions. My fastest crash was a low-side at about a buck in Turn 5 at Laguna Seca at one of Reg Pridmore's CLASS racetrack schools. Turns out I put about a dozen thermal cycles on my new performance tires before the class date, and that's a bad idea. Maybe one or two thermal cycles (a commute), but not a dozen. You really learn a lot about traction when riding at a racetrack.

Ouch.

 

[Cyrus]

It only takes one time in a car too. It only takes one time walking on the sidewalk. I have no intention of spending any part of my life worrying about anything I can't control. If I can control it, I'll do something about it. If I can't, then all I can do is hope for the best. I've got better things to do than worry about things I can't control.

No no no, don't kid yourself. This is illogical and childish...

 

[berkeman]

It only takes one time in a car too. It only takes one time walking on the sidewalk. I have no intention of spending any part of my life worrying about anything I can't control. If I can control it, I'll do something about it. If I can't, then all I can do is hope for the best. I've got better things to do than worry about things I can't control.

Well, I'd like to emphasize that there are many, many things that you can do as you ride to help you avoid an accident. Cyrus is certainly correct that there are many dangerous cages out there, and it only takes one time to take you out. But it's kind of like the old fighter pilot stories, about how if you survived your first week of sorties, you would probably survive the war (because you had time to learn the survival tricks).

Here's one concrete example of a very valuable strategy that they teach in the MSF class. I use this technique several times a week, generally. You are approaching an intersection where a car coming from the opposite direction is stopped waiting to turn left. You are following an SUV, so it is hard for the stopped car to see you, and there is a moderate chance they will turn quickly right after the SUV clears and take you out. So you take the left wheel-track lane position behind the SUV, a little back of normal position as you approach the intersection. This makes you as visible as possible to the stopped car. Just as you get to the intersection, you pull into the right wheel track and accelerate up closer to the SUV. This uses the SUV as a "blocker" to make it harder for the stopped car to turn too soon and take you out. Finally, you watch the stopped car to see if they are going to mis-time their turn and have a chance of hitting you. If it looks close, you accelerate sharply (see, no Ninja 500) to the right up closer to the SUV, and even alongside the right side if it's that close.

That technique is not something you're going to figure out on your own, probably, so it's great that the MSF has compiled that trick and a bunch of other ones into its class. There is also a set of VERY important tricks and techniques to use when lane splitting, and they only mention a few of them in the MSF class (depends on the instructor). It's good to have an experienced rider as a mentor as you start riding. My son (now 12) has been riding with me on the street for several years, and we talk a lot about different survival strategies. When he gets his license, I plan on putting radios in our helmets, so we can ride together and talk about situations as they come up. Riding is dangerous, but knowledge and practice and skill mitigate the level of danger tremendously, IMO.

http://www.msf-usa.org/

 

[franznietzsche]

Well, I'd like to emphasize that there are many, many things that you can do as you ride to help you avoid an accident. Cyrus is certainly correct that there are many dangerous cages out there, and it only takes one time to take you out. But it's kind of like the old fighter pilot stories, about how if you survived your first week of sorties, you would probably survive the war (because you had time to learn the survival tricks).

This is exactly my point. I have no intention of neglecting anything that I can control to keep myself as safe as possible. Again, that is why i am looking into this a year before I even intend to get a bike.

Here's one concrete example of a very valuable strategy that they teach in the MSF class. I use this technique several times a week, generally. You are approaching an intersection where a car coming from the opposite direction is stopped waiting to turn left. You are following an SUV, so it is hard for the stopped car to see you, and there is a moderate chance they will turn quickly right after the SUV clears and take you out. So you take the left wheel-track lane position behind the SUV, a little back of normal position as you approach the intersection. This makes you as visible as possible to the stopped car. Just as you get to the intersection, you pull into the right wheel track and accelerate up closser to the SUV. This uses the SUV as a "blocker" to make it harder for the stopped car to turn too soon and take you out. Finally, you watch the stopped car to see if they are going to mis-time their turn and have a chance of hitting you. If it looks close, you accelerate sharply (see, no Ninja 500) to the right up closer to the SUV, and even alongside the right side if it's that close.

That technique is not something you're going to figure out on your own, probably, so it's great that the MSF has compiled that trick and a bunch of other ones into its class. There is also a set of VERY important tricks and techniques to use when lane splitting, and they only mention a few of them in the MSF class (depends on the instructor). It's good to have an experienced rider as a mentor as you start riding. My son (now 12) has been riding with me on the street for several years, and we talk a lot about different survival strategies. When he gets his license, I plan on putting radios in our helmets, so we can ride together and talk about situations as they come up. Riding is dangerous, but knowledge and practice and skill mitigate the level of danger tremendously, IMO.

http://www.msf-usa.org/

I had actually found that site already (since you mentioned the MSF courses previously), and defnitely intend on taking the course.

No no no, don't kid yourself. This is illogical and childish...

Mmkay, I'll get back to duct taping all those air vents every time the terror alert level changes. Hmmm...

 

[rocketboy]

Yeah, you can be as safe as you like. It only takes 1 time for some idiot in the car next to you to not pay attention and your in a wheel chair.

It's your call, but personally Id stay far away from using a bike as a daily driver. I've seen bikers being tailgated by idiots in SUV's. All sorts of stuff that makes your blood boil. No thanks, I like to be in a metal cage when another 2000lb car hits me.

it's so true... many times it doesn't matter what the biker's ability is... it's the other idiots on the road that don't know how to drive that are going to kill you. you could be the best rider in the world but when some guy runs a red light (or somethign) it isn't going to help you much.

 

[berkeman]

you could be the best rider in the world but when some guy runs a red light (or somethign) it isn't going to help you much.

But it's precisely that vulnerability that makes you do extra things at intersections on a motorcycle. I've avoided getting hit by red light runners several times, because I was doing extra scanning for just that. And when you approach an intersection where you can't see far enough both ways to be sure that nobody is coming, you have to slow down to stay in an envelope where you can stop in time if somebody is coming. Now if they're doing 110 in a 25 zone, you might misjudge the envelope and get hit...

 

[Cyrus]

See my friends bike Franz, this is what will happen if someone clips you (although not what happened to my friend, but results will be the same).

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/2200/untitledrx2.png

Now if that were a car, it would be a different story. I have seen someone get hit because he went through a yellow and the person on the other lane decided to make that last minute turn on the left arrow as the light changed. They hit hard but walked away. If that was you on your bike you would be dead.

 

[berkeman]

Cyrus -- I'm not sure I want to see the image, but FYI the uploadfile website is not serving it at the moment.

 

[Cyrus]

Fixed, thanks.

http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/2497/phibike3xa4.png

Bye bye bike.

 

[slugcountry]

cyrus what exactly is your purpose in this thread?

we all know the risks, and we still love doing it

go live life

 

[Cyrus]

If you read my posts you would know my point...Right??

 

[franznietzsche]

@cyrus:

What is your point? You want to talk about risk?

I had a friend who was shot and killed. My best friend shot and killed himself. I've known two people who have died in avalanches. A guy I knew in high school died a month ago on a motorcycle when someone ******* ran a stop sign and nailed him. So if you think showing me pictures of a wrecked bike is going to freak me out, I'm sorry but you're wasting your time.

I still go skiing, have no qualms about going to the shooting range, and I'm not concerned about riding a motorcycle. I am concerned about not taking advantage of every opportunity I have while I can. I screwed up that way once already.

A plane crashed a week ago, killed everyone but one person on board. Should I never fly again?

There are risks in everything we do. Some risks you can mitigate. Do something about those. Some you can't do anything about. Live with it.

There is no point in living if you spend your life worrying about things you can't control. I'm more interested in actually enjoying the short span I've got.

 

[Cyrus]

Im glad you two don't pay attention to a word I have said.

Frankly, I could care less anymore...I tried to give you a word of warning but if you don't want to listen that's on you.

Cya.

Next time don't make a thread and ask for "recomendations and comments" if you don't want to listen to people when their advice would cause you to avoid unnecessary risks. You wanted to know about the seriousness of motorcycles and I gave it to you.

 

[slugcountry]

@cyrus:

What is your point? You want to talk about risk?

I had a friend who was shot and killed. My best friend shot and killed himself. I've known two people who have died in avalanches. A guy I knew in high school died a month ago on a motorcycle when someone ******* ran a stop sign and nailed him. So if you think showing me pictures of a wrecked bike is going to freak me out, I'm sorry but you're wasting your time.

I still go skiing, have no qualms about going to the shooting range, and I'm not concerned about riding a motorcycle. I am concerned about not taking advantage of every opportunity I have while I can. I screwed up that way once already.

A plane crashed a week ago, killed everyone but one person on board. Should I never fly again?

There are risks in everything we do. Some risks you can mitigate. Do something about those. Some you can't do anything about. Live with it.

There is no point in living if you spend your life worrying about things you can't control. I'm more interested in actually enjoying the short span I've got.

i feel like I've said those exact words so many times, way to go.

people just don't understand... you can die in the time it takes to type this sentence, live life to the fullest =)

edit: cyrus, he didnt ask for a lecture, he wanted to know what motorcycle to buy, take some of your own advice and read the thread.

 

[Cyrus]

Get one thing straight, I said what I said because I care about him.

Is it really worth getting killed because someone didnt stop at a stop sign?

 

[franznietzsche]

Get one thing straight, I said what I said because I care about him.

Is it really worth getting killed because someone didnt stop at a stop sign?

Is it really worth worrying about things I can't control?

 

[Cyrus]

But you CAN choose to drive a car...LOOK

If you want to get a bike AWESOME GET ONE! But treat it as a luxury item. Take it out on weekends, ride with a group of buddies.

If you want to drive it 24-7, so cars have a hard time seeing you riding alone, you are taking enormous risks, for no good reason.

 

[berkeman]

Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them: A desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill.

-Muhammad Ali

Cyrus, would you at least agree that the risks of riding a motorcycle can be significantly migitated by training, knowledge, patience, care, preparation and practice? We may not agree on the level of the mitigation, but I'm pretty sure that you would agree that riders can have an influence on their level of risk. Nice signature, BTW.

 

[3trQN]

I personally like the GSXR, but i would reccomend you start with something cheap and small first, a 250 is pleanty. If you haven't ridden one yet youll be suprised, traffic is not a problem on 250, even a 125 can push 70mph downhill.

The problem with rider skill is not so much handling of the machine but knowlage of the road, threat analysis and risk taking. If you go straight for 600, youll be learning a lot and fast and you won't have as much time for mistakes.

I personally road bikes for years off-road, progressed on to 50cc road, 125, 250, 600...Mostly because of the costs, but I am glad i couldn't afford a 600 at 18.

Car drivers are out to kill you, just so you know :P

I had some dude throw bannana skins out the car window while i was following the other day, i was dumb struck as i weaved between the peices, it was like something out of a cartoon. I was expecting the piano or anvil drop next.

Is it really worth worrying about things I can't control?

That sais that you may not be ready for 600 imo. Allways expect cars at junctions to pull out, to ignore the stop sign. You can control it by being prepared.
From a game theory point of view, what are your maximum losses? Your gains?

Cover the break, slow down anticipate him comming out, plan ahead and look for your exit point if he does (up the middle? hard shoulder?), where are my obstacles? If the worst happens where do i go?

Some drivers look right at you and still pull out

With a slower bike, you can learn all this at a better pace imo.

 

[franznietzsche]

I personally like the GSXR, but i would reccomend you start with something cheap and small first, a 250 is pleanty. If you haven't ridden one yet youll be suprised, traffic is not a problem on 250, even a 125 can push 70mph downhill.

Normal flow of traffic on the highway is 80+ around here, 60+ going up 7% grades. City traffic is not where I'm so much worried about the power of the 250 (at least not based on what limited knowledge I have as of now). Freeways though, I am concerned.

The problem with rider skill is not so much handling of the machine but knowlage of the road, threat analysis and risk taking. If you go straight for 600, youll be learning a lot and fast and you won't have as much time for mistakes.

I personally road bikes for years off-road, progressed on to 50cc road, 125, 250, 600...Mostly because of the costs, but I am glad i couldn't afford a 600 at 18.

Car drivers are out to kill you, just so you know :P

I had some dude throw bannana skins out the car window while i was following the other day, i was dumb struck as i weaved between the peices, it was like something out of a cartoon. I was expecting the piano or anvil drop next.

That sais that you may not be ready for 600 imo. Allways expect cars at junctions to pull out, to ignore the stop sign. You can control it by being prepared.
From a game theory point of view, what are your maximum losses? Your gains?

I think you misunderstood me. My preparation is something I can control.

Based on most of the statements here, I agree with regards to not starting on a GSX or a CBR (or other high end 600). I'm not convinced that a 250 is a good idea though.

Cover the break, slow down anticipate him comming out, plan ahead and look for your exit point if he does (up the middle? hard shoulder?), where are my obstacles? If the worst happens where do i go?

Some drivers look right at you and still pull out

With a slower bike, you can learn all this at a better pace imo.

 

[Ascetic Anchorite]

It is exactly because of the danger on the roads from brain-dead morons (the majority of drivers, and I am sure that can be scientifically proven) that I am building a power-assist bicycle, similar to the type I posted on earlier in this thread.

With this powered bicycle I can use dirt tracks, cycle paths, country footpaths, farm tracks, etc., so I will be able to avoid the roads and dramatically reduce the chance of even seeing a car or truck, let alone colliding with one. Journeys will take a little more time, but I am not willing to sacrifice my health, well being and life on the alter of convenience.

It is true that there are many dangers and hazards. The existence of other dangers is an invalid reason to justify risk-taking in this, or any other area. It would be only prudent to minimize as many risks as possible and only to undertake risky activities that are essential, or the abstinence from which would render ones life completely devoid of sources of fulfillment.

I do not fly commercial jets, I do not eat meat, eggs or dairy, I do not eat aspartame, MSG or foods grown with pesticides, I do not use wireless telephones, I do not do a lot of risky things. These things are not essential and so are not missed.

I used to ride a motorcycle here in the UK. I did not ride it very fast, at around 60 - 65mph whilst on the motorway. It was impossible to go anywhere at any time without being tailgated. I would with absolute confidence bet $20,000 that I would be tailgated if I were to get a bike and go for a ride right now! The problem really is that bad and it is getting worse. And you can thank the corrupt leaders for that.

 

[neonia]

sorry, i was just reading random pages about my new ninja 500r, trying to get some more info, I am KINDA new to motorcyc's but old in moto-x. and yeah I am using my 500r for 30mile commute 2x daily. good bike.

and now for the reason that i had to register: [sorry to reiterate a few things, and sorry this thread is migrating so much]

@ cyrusabdollahi:

ive been shot, hit by bikes, snowmobiles, cars and dirtbikes, I've been drowned I've seen men bounce when their parachute hasnt deployed, I've been bitten by dogs and sharks, I've been bucked off of bulls and horses onto everything from thistles to 550volt barbed hot-wire, and I've been run off the road many times, but guess what!

I STILL HUNT AND GO SHOOTING, I STILL RIDE, RACE AND RODEO, I STILL SKYDIVE, I STILL DRIVE, I STILL TRAIN HORSES, AND I STILL OWN MY MOTORCYCLES.

just because things are potentially dangerous doesn't mean we can't enjoy them, your mom might have std's but your dad still slept with her, right? [i mean, you are here...]

life is only so long, so have fun while you can.
-------------------------------------------------------------

 

[scorpa]

franznietzsche I don't remember if there was ever a follow up to this thread, did you ever end up buying a bike? If so we need details! Or did you at least narrow down your choices a little, try some out?

I went down to the Harley dealership the other day and sat on a few sportsters, and man am I ever in love with them. A nice little 1200 custom would suit me quite nicely :) That or a triumph america, which are nice bikes as well, however there are only 2 triumph dealers in Alberta and I despise one of them. If all goes well I will have an amazing paying job this summer so I would like to sell my dirtbike, and use some of the money to buy a used sportster. It probably won't happen but it would sure be a sweet deal if it did.

In a month we should start getting some good riding weather! Yippee!

 

[JasonRox]

Cyrus, would you at least agree that the risks of riding a motorcycle can be significantly migitated by training, knowledge, patience, care, preparation and practice? We may not agree on the level of the mitigation, but I'm pretty sure that you would agree that riders can have an influence on their level of risk. Nice signature, BTW.

Exactly, you can influence your own risk.

You take training courses, and that teach you how to react and when to react in emergencies and so on.

 

[turbo]

franznietzsche I don't remember if there was ever a follow up to this thread, did you ever end up buying a bike? If so we need details! Or did you at least narrow down your choices a little, try some out?

I went down to the Harley dealership the other day and sat on a few sportsters, and man am I ever in love with them. A nice little 1200 custom would suit me quite nicely :) That or a triumph america, which are nice bikes as well, however there are only 2 triumph dealers in Alberta and I despise one of them. If all goes well I will have an amazing paying job this summer so I would like to sell my dirtbike, and use some of the money to buy a used sportster. It probably won't happen but it would sure be a sweet deal if it did.

In a month we should start getting some good riding weather! Yippee!

Go for it, Scorpa! You're long-legged enough to benefit from a neat little demographic wrinkle. Lots of women start on a Sportster, and when they eventually want one of the bigger bikes, they tend to gravitate toward Low-Riders, and other bikes with lower seat heights, because on average, women are shorter than men. For this reason the Dyna usually sells for a lot less than the Low Riders and Dyna Wide Glides. My friend just took a '95 Dyna with about 25k miles on it in great condition (with forward controls,custom pegs and pedals and quite a bit of chrome) for $6000 in trade against a Peterbilt that he is selling. A Low Rider or DWG in that condition would probably sell for $8000 or so. You can easily add forward controls to the Dyna if you like the foot-forward cruiser seating.

 

[scorpa]

Go for it, Scorpa! You're long-legged enough to benefit from a neat little demographic wrinkle. Lots of women start on a Sportster, and when they eventually want one of the bigger bikes, they tend to gravitate toward Low-Riders, and other bikes with lower seat heights, because on average, women are shorter than men. For this reason the Dyna usually sells for a lot less than the Low Riders and Dyna Wide Glides. My friend just took a '95 Dyna with about 25k miles on it in great condition (with forward controls,custom pegs and pedals and quite a bit of chrome) for $6000 in trade against a Peterbilt that he is selling. A Low Rider or DWG in that condition would probably sell for $8000 or so. You can easily add forward controls to the Dyna if you like the foot-forward cruiser seating.

Yeah I would really like to Turbo, I love to ride and getting a street bike of my own is definitely a major goal of mine! I figure I'll start with a sportster and definitely the 1200, the peanut tank on the 883 won't have enough range for me. I think if you get the 1200 custom it actually comes with the forward controls already which is nice because I do prefer them. I've been riding for about 8 years now but just on dirtbikes, my street riding has been minimal so a sporty will be more than enough to start on. I'd like to give my dads wide glide a go but unfortunately it has extended forward controls for taller people and from just sitting on it I don't really want to deal with the weight of it to start with. A low rider is a good option though but definitely a few years down the road. Being only 19 years old I would imagine the cost of insurance may put a bit of a snag into that plan but I haven't looked into that at all yet. I wish I could stomach the idea of riding a japanese bike but they are so god awful ugly I will gladly save the extra money for a bike I will actually like...either a Harley or a triumph. I suppose some of the Honda's arent to bad, I don't mind their 750's but I prefer the look and feel of a Harley.

 

[turbo]

Remember that you can keep any bike upright if you already have it near balance when you stop and you don't stop in a place where the placement of the kick stand will cause your bike to lean heavily. Experience and skillful riding can let you handle a bike that is a LOT heavier than a dirt bike with no more effort. You don't have to be particularly strong/tall/massive (etc) to handle a full-sized Harley under most circumstances. Look at the trade-in values for Dynas in your area and see if you can swing one. Over the years, you can turn it into anything you'd like (within reason) and you can buy in at a bargain price.

 

[scorpa]

Remember that you can keep any bike upright if you already have it near balance when you stop and you don't stop in a place where the placement of the kick stand will cause your bike to lean heavily. Experience and skillful riding can let you handle a bike that is a LOT heavier than a dirt bike with no more effort. You don't have to be particularly strong/tall/massive (etc) to handle a full-sized Harley under most circumstances. Look at the trade-in values for Dynas in your area and see if you can swing one. Over the years, you can turn it into anything you'd like (within reason) and you can buy in at a bargain price.

True enough. It is definitely something to consider, because I do wonder how long I will ride the Sportster before I start wanting something bigger. So I suppose I have two options, buy the sporty which is initially cheaper and upgrade it a bit as I move along, although that can only be taken so far before it just gets silly. Or I could go with a Dyna, or a Softail if it is set up the right way for a slightly higher initial cost but be happy with it as is (more or less). Haha I was just talking to my mom on the phone and I kind of brought up the idea and she doesn't seem pleased, I'm sure dad will be more receptive to the idea though. One thing I have on my side is the price of Harley's has gone down quite a bit so that will help me out.

 

[turbo]

If you can find a reasonably-priced Softail that would be nice. You'd get the wide front-end, the forward controls and a trim-looking rear end in a fairly low package. I love mine!