Calculating Spacetime Around Multiple Objects

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the calculation of spacetime around multiple massive objects, specifically addressing the metrics applicable in such scenarios, the challenges posed by non-linearities in general relativity, and methods for approximating gravitational effects. Participants explore theoretical frameworks, numerical solutions, and the implications of different approaches in the context of gravitational time dilation and spacetime warping.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose using the Schwarzschild Metric for single massive bodies but question what metric applies to multiple bodies, noting that no exact solution is known and numerical methods are required.
  • It is suggested that gravitational time dilation is not strictly defined in non-stationary spacetimes, and approximating the situation as Newtonian may be a viable approach.
  • One participant emphasizes that the non-linear nature of the Einstein field equations prevents simple superposition of solutions, which contrasts with Newtonian gravity.
  • Another participant discusses the Einstein-Infeld-Hoffmann equations as a basis for multi-body numerical solutions in weak fields, highlighting the iterative nature of these equations due to their non-linear characteristics.
  • There is a discussion on the practical application of these equations, where zero-order Newtonian acceleration is used for approximations, raising questions about the linearization of the equations.
  • Some participants note the surprising accuracy of post-Newtonian (PPN) methods in predicting gravitational waveforms, despite the high speeds and significant curvature involved, which raises questions about the validity of certain principles in light of recent theories.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the appropriate metrics and methods for calculating spacetime around multiple objects, and the discussion remains unresolved on several technical points, particularly concerning the implications of non-linearities and the effectiveness of various approximations.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific assumptions regarding the nature of the masses involved and the conditions under which approximations are valid. The discussion also highlights unresolved mathematical steps in applying the Einstein-Infeld-Hoffmann equations iteratively.

Sciencemaster
Messages
129
Reaction score
20
TL;DR
What metric would one use to describe spacetime around multiple massive objects?
In describing the spacetime around a massive, spherical object, one would use the Schwarzschild Metric. What metric would instead be used to describe the spacetime around multiple massive bodies? Say, for example, you want to calculate the Gravitational Time Dilation experienced by a rocket ship between two different stars (where everything in the system is stationary with respect to everything else for simplicity). How would you go about doing that?
Similarly, is there a metric that can calculate the warping of spacetime from arbitrary amounts of masses or around objects that aren't spherical (perhaps by approximating the object as a collection of point masses)?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: exmarine
Physics news on Phys.org
Sciencemaster said:
What metric would instead be used to describe the spacetime around multiple massive bodies?
No exact solution is known for this case. It can only be solved numerically.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: exmarine, vanhees71 and Dale
Sciencemaster said:
How would you go about doing that?
Get a big computer. And note that time dilation isn't strictly defined here since the spacetime is non-stationary.

Or approximate it as Newtonian and add the potentials.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: exmarine and vanhees71
To add to what has already been said: The reason you cannot just add upp the solutions for a lot of point masses is that — unlike Newtonian gravity — the Einstein field equations of general relativity are non-linear. This makes gravitation self-interacting and different solutions cannot be superpositioned.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: exmarine and vanhees71
Ibix said:
approximate it as Newtonian and add the potentials
This is the basis for multi-body numerical solutions in the weak field regime: assume all non-linear terms are negligible and add the contributions from each body. The most general scheme that I'm aware of for this is the Einstein-Infeld-Hoffmann equations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein–Infeld–Hoffmann_equations
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: exmarine, Sciencemaster and vanhees71
PeterDonis said:
This is the basis for multi-body numerical solutions in the weak field regime: assume all non-linear terms are negligible and add the contributions from each body. The most general scheme that I'm aware of for this is the Einstein-Infeld-Hoffmann equations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein–Infeld–Hoffmann_equations
Actually, these equations are nonlinear, in that the acceleration of any body is affected by the acceleration of every other body. There is no ability to add solutions - an iterative procedure is needed for strict application of these equations. In practice, for solar system purposes, they are further approximated such that the accelerations in the RHS of the equations are computed via Newton.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: exmarine and vanhees71
PAllen said:
Actually, these equations are nonlinear, in that the acceleration of any body is affected by the acceleration of every other body.
Yes, as the equations are written, that's true. As the article I linked to notes, though, in practice, although the equations should be solved iteratively, the zero-order Newtonian acceleration of each body is used in the formulas for every other body and sufficient accuracy is gained that way. I think that amounts to linearizing the equations, although I'm not positive.
 
PeterDonis said:
Yes, as the equations are written, that's true. As the article I linked to notes, though, in practice, although the equations should be solved iteratively, the zero-order Newtonian acceleration of each body is used in the formulas for every other body and sufficient accuracy is gained that way. I think that amounts to linearizing the equations, although I'm not positive.
I also think that linearizes them. That method is used for the most accurate solar system extrapolations in current use, including modeling perihelion advance for all the planets. But the interesting thing about PPN methods is that they have proven quantitatively accurate (used to 3.5 order - the EIH equations are first order PPN) for predicting gravitational wave forms for inspiralling BH and neutron stars (up until the very last moments). This is considered surprising, because the relative speeds are a major fraction of light speed and the curvature is large. Clifford Will has argued that this unexpected success is evidence that the strong equivalence principle must be correct to very high precision. Which certainly creates tension with recent MOND papers claiming violations of the weak equivalence principle.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: exmarine and PeterDonis

Similar threads

  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
2K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
3K
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 103 ·
4
Replies
103
Views
7K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 57 ·
2
Replies
57
Views
4K