Can a non-symmetric matrix be positive definite?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Leo321
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Matrix Positive
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the conditions under which a non-symmetric matrix can be considered positive definite, specifically focusing on the matrix A and its relation to A + A^T. Participants explore definitions of positive definiteness, the implications of symmetry, and the role of eigenvalues.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the requirements for A + A^T to be positive definite and whether conditions on the eigenvalues of A exist.
  • There is a definition provided that a matrix A is positive definite if vAv^T > 0 for all vectors v, but participants note discrepancies in definitions across sources.
  • One participant mentions that the Wikipedia definition is clearer for symmetric matrices but vague for non-symmetric ones, raising concerns about applying theorems regarding positive definiteness.
  • Another participant argues that non-hermitian (non-symmetric) matrices provide limited information about eigenvalues and that the definiteness concept is often tied to partial ordering.
  • It is noted that while A may not be symmetric, A + A^T is symmetric and thus can be positive definite.
  • Some participants assert that a positive definite matrix is automatically symmetric, while others challenge this, stating that only the symmetric part of a matrix can be positive definite.
  • A mathematical representation is provided showing that any matrix can be decomposed into symmetric and antisymmetric parts, with implications for the quadratic form.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the definitions and implications of positive definiteness for non-symmetric matrices. There is no consensus on whether a positive definite matrix must be symmetric or if non-symmetric matrices can be considered positive definite under certain conditions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in definitions and the applicability of theorems concerning positive definiteness, particularly regarding the treatment of non-symmetric matrices.

Leo321
Messages
38
Reaction score
0
Let A be a real nxn matrix.
What are the requirements of A for A+AT to be positive definite?
Is there a condition on eigenvalues of A, so that A+AT is positive definite?

Also I am not sure about the definition of a positive definite matrix. In some places it is written that the matrix must be symmetric, while in others it is defined for non-symmetric matrices. In many places I see theorems, which require a matrix to be positive definite and it is not clear to me if I can use it for non-symmetric matrices or not.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Grufey said:
Hello.

First, the definition:

Let's a matrix, A, is called definite positive if, vAv^t>0 for all v (v vector).

Here, I think you have the answer.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PositiveDefiniteMatrix.html

The problem is that this differs from how it is defined in Wikipedia. The Wikipedia definition is clear about symmetric matrices, but vague about non symmetric ones. So what do you do when you see some theorem, that speaks about positive definite matrices? Do you require the matrix to be symmetric or not?
 
I don't know if wikipedia is the ultimate source but definiteness is usually defined together with the partial ordering (actually Löewner partial ordering to sound very academic and sophisticated). Thus, non-hermitian definite matrices are of little use. Only gives some information about the sign of its eigenvalues. In other words A-B \succ 0 and thus A \succ B makes no sense for nonhermitian matrices.

When the matrix entries are real v^tAv = v^TA^Tv \in \mathbb{R}, hence if v^TAv > 0 for all v , then v^T(A + A^T)v = 2v^TAv> 0 for all v. Note that, I did not use the term positive definite since A might be nonsymmetric. But obviously A + A^T is symmetric hence positive definite.
 
Last edited:
Edited:

Positive definite matrix is automatically symmetric.

That was wrong in the real case. Thanks, D H.
 
Last edited:
arkajad said:
Positive definite matrix is automatically symmetric.
Not true. What can be said is that the symmetric part of a positive definite matrix is positive definite.

Any NxN matrix can be represented as a sum of a symmetric and antisymmetric (skew symmetric) matrices:

\begin{align*}<br /> A &amp;= A_S + A_A \\[4pt]<br /> A_S &amp;\equiv \frac 1 2 \left(A+A^T\right) \\[4pt]<br /> A_A &amp;\equiv \frac 1 2 \left(A-A^T\right)<br /> \end{align*}

With this notation, the quadratic form x^TAx becomes

x^TAx = x^TA_Sx + x^TA_Ax = x^TA_Sx

The final expression results because x^TA_Ax \equiv 0. The contribution of the skew symmetric part of a matrix to this quadratic form is identically zero.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K