Can a Scalar Equation Be Transformed into Lagrangian Form?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the transformation of a scalar equation of motion into Lagrangian form, specifically examining the conditions under which a function can be multiplied to achieve this form. The scope includes theoretical aspects of classical mechanics and the application of specific mathematical theorems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant mentions a scalar equation $$\ddot x=F(t,x,\dot x)$$ and suggests that it can be transformed into Lagrangian form using a non-zero function $$\mu(t,x,\dot x)$$.
  • Several participants inquire about the definition of the Lagrangian $$L$$ in this context, indicating a lack of clarity on its formulation.
  • Another participant proposes that the existence of $$\mu$$ should allow the equation to be expressed as $$\frac{d}{dt} \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot x} - \frac{\partial L}{\partial x} = 0$$ for some suitable $$L$$.
  • One participant suggests expanding the total time derivative and substituting $$\ddot x = F$$ to derive an equation for $$L$$, while also noting that this approach relates to the Cauchy-Kowalewski theorem.
  • Another approach mentioned involves manipulating the equation to express $$\mu \ddot x$$ in terms of derivatives of $$\mu$$ and $$\dot x$$, leading to a system of equations for $$L$$.
  • A participant introduces the Helmholtz conditions, stating they are necessary and sufficient for a corresponding Lagrangian to exist, and discusses the implications of these conditions on the equation of motion.
  • References to literature on Helmholtz conditions and Jacobi's Last Multiplier technique are provided, indicating a deeper theoretical background relevant to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definition of the Lagrangian and the conditions for the existence of $$\mu$$. There is no consensus on a straightforward method to achieve the transformation into Lagrangian form, and multiple approaches are discussed without resolution.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the transformation may depend on specific mathematical theorems, such as the Cauchy-Kowalewski theorem and the Helmholtz conditions, which may not be universally applicable in all cases.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying classical mechanics, particularly in the context of Lagrangian formulations and the mathematical foundations underlying them.

wrobel
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There is a problem from a Russian textbook in classical mechanics.

Consider a scalar equation $$\ddot x=F(t,x,\dot x),\quad x\in\mathbb{R}.$$ Show that this equation can be multiplied by a function ##\mu(t,x,\dot x)\ne 0## such that the resulting equation
$$\mu\ddot x=\mu F(t,x,\dot x)$$ has the Lagrangian form
$$\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot x}-\frac{\partial L}{\partial x}=0.$$
I can only say that by the Cauchy-Kowalewski theorem it can be done locally provided ##F## is an analytic function.

But some relatively elementary way is supposed. Sure it is a local assertion.

What do you think?
 
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I've only seen the Lagrangian written like that when trying to maximize an integral. How is ##L## defined here? My brief googling didn't find anything useful.
 
Office_Shredder said:
How is L defined here?
from the Cauchy-Kowalewski theorem. I do not have other idea.
 
Sorry, I think I misunderstood the question. Is it supposed to be show there exists ##\mu## such that ##\mu\ddot x - \mu F## can be written as ##\frac{d}{dt} \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot x} -\frac{\partial L}{\partial x}## for some ##L## which is presumably formed by ##F## and ##\mu##?
 
Office_Shredder said:
Sorry, I think I misunderstood the question. Is it supposed to be show there exists μ such that μx¨−μF can be written as ddt∂L∂x˙−∂L∂x for some L which is presumably formed by F and μ?
yes and ##\mu(t,x,\dot x)\ne 0##
 
The obvious course is to expand the total time derivative and substitute \ddot x = F, which yields <br /> F\frac{\partial^2L}{\partial \dot x^2} + \dot x \frac{\partial^2L}{\partial x \,\partial \dot x} + \frac{\partial^2L}{\partial t\,\partial \dot x} - \frac{\partial L}{\partial x} = 0 as an equation for L; \mu is then equal to \dfrac{\partial^2L}{\partial \dot x^2}. I haven't attempted to solve this.

Another approach is to write \mu \ddot x = \frac{d}{dt}(\mu \dot x) - \frac{d\mu}{dt}\dot x so that <br /> \frac{d}{dt}(\mu\dot x) - \frac{d\mu}{dt}\dot x - \mu F = 0 and try to solve <br /> \begin{split}<br /> \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot x} &amp;= \mu\dot x \\<br /> \frac{\partial L}{\partial x} &amp;= \frac{d\mu}{dt}\dot x + \mu F\end{split}
 
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pasmith said:
The obvious course is to expand the total time derivative and substitute x¨=F, which yields F∂2L∂x˙2+x˙∂2L∂x∂x˙+∂2L∂t∂x˙−∂L∂x=0 as an equation for L;
yes and that is why I referred to Cauchy-Kowalewski
 
wrobel said:
There is a problem from a Russian textbook in classical mechanics.
Does the textbook mention the "Helmholtz conditions" in The Inverse Problem in Lagrangian Mechanics, (or similar)?

In brief, the Helmholtz conditions on a given equation of motion (EoM) are necessary and sufficient for a corresponding Lagrangian to exist.

For 1D problems, 2 of the 3 Helmholtz conditions are trivially satisfied.

Write the EoM as ##\,G(x,\dot x, \ddot x, t) = 0\,##. Then the 3rd Helmholtz condition boils down to$$\frac{\partial G}{\partial \dot x} ~=~ \frac{d}{dt}\, \frac{\partial G}{\partial \ddot x}~.$$If this is not immediately satisfied, one can use the technique of "Jacobi's Last Multiplier", and write ##H := \mu(\dot x, x,t)\, G## which obviously satisfies the EoM. The Helmholtz condition on ##H## says $$\frac{\partial \mu}{\partial \dot x} \, G ~+~ \mu \, \frac{\partial G}{\partial \dot x} ~=~ \frac{d\mu}{dt}~,$$ (since we're assuming ##G## is 1st order in ##\ddot x##). Then the idea is to choose ##\mu## to be independent of ##\dot x## and solve what's left to get something like $$\mu ~=~ \exp\left(\int\! \frac{\partial G}{\partial \dot x} \, dt\right) ~.$$
wrobel said:
[...] But some relatively elementary way is supposed.
Elementary, yes -- but relying on a very nontrivial theorem about the Helmholtz conditions. :oldwink:

References:

1) Anton Almen's paper: https://jfuchs.hotell.kau.se/kurs/amek/prst/19_heco.pdf
which contains the nontrivial proof, but also works through the 1D harmonic oscillator as an example. Partially, a shorter version of the next reference:

2) Nigam & Banerjee, "A Brief Review of Helmholtz Conditions",
Available as: arxiv:1602.01563

Google gives many references about Helmholtz conditions and the technique of "Jacobi's Last Multiplier".

I hope that helps. :oldsmile:
 
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Thanks a lot. That is interesting indeed. I have never heard about the Helmholtz conditions
 
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