Can Black Holes Challenge the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between black holes and the second law of thermodynamics, particularly focusing on entropy changes in systems like an ideal gas as they approach black hole conditions. The scope includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications regarding entropy in curved spacetime.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the increase in the area of a black hole corresponds to an increase in entropy, suggesting consistency with the second law of thermodynamics.
  • One participant questions whether the entropy of an ideal gas decreases as it contracts to a volume less than a certain threshold, raising concerns about how this aligns with the second law.
  • Another participant clarifies that the entropy of an ideal gas is related to both volume and temperature, indicating that temperature changes during compression may compensate for volume loss.
  • There is a suggestion that thermal energy increases during compression, which could offset the decrease in entropy due to reduced volume.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the relationship between entropy, volume, and temperature is crucial in understanding the behavior of gases under compression, but the discussion remains unresolved regarding how these principles apply in the context of black holes and the second law.

Contextual Notes

The discussion does not resolve the implications of entropy changes in curved spacetime or whether a modified version of the second law is necessary in this context.

AuraCrystal
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I read in a book that since the area of a black hole increases, the entropy increases, so black holes are consistent w/ the second law of thermodynamics.

So...I have a really stupid question on black holes and the second law of thermodynamics: Consider an ideal gas of non-interacting particles that is spherical in shape. According to GR, once it contracts to less than r=2M (M is the mass), it will get smaller and smaller. However, the entropy of this ideal gas is, of course:

S~log(V)+(terms involving energy)

Where V is the volume. So...wouldn't this mean that the entropy decreases? Or is there some sort of extra energy added to the system to "make up" for the loss of entropy resulting from decreasing volume? Is there some sort of modification in curved spacetime to the equation above to make it OK? Is there a modified version of the second law?

Sorry, this is a really dumb question, I realize.
 
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It's not a dumb question at all.
The entropy of an ideal gas is related to the product of the volume and temperature, by:
S \propto \textrm{ln}(V T^a)
for some power 'a'.

When a gas compresses, what happens to the temperature?
 
Oh, so the thermal energy increases and "makes up" for the loss of volume?
 
Exactly!
 
All right, thank you!
 

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