Can Decreases in Pressure Propagate as Shockwaves in Fluids and Gases?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on whether decreases in pressure can propagate as shockwaves in fluids and gases. It explores theoretical aspects, particularly in the context of sound speed, compressibility, and the behavior of fluids near critical points.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant claims that in low pressure gases, the speed of sound is independent of pressure and depends only on temperature, suggesting that an increase in pressure can propagate as a shockwave, while a decrease cannot due to cooling effects.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of a rarefaction shock, indicating that there may be circumstances under which a decrease in pressure could propagate, particularly in dense gas dynamics.
  • There is a discussion about the definition of "fluids," with participants noting that both liquids and gases can transform around the critical point, leading to potential overlaps in behavior.
  • A participant questions how the speed of sound around the critical point depends on pressure along adiabats and whether there are regions where sound speed increases on expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the propagation of pressure decreases as shockwaves, with some suggesting it is not possible while others propose specific conditions under which it might occur. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the general applicability of these concepts to fluids and gases.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes references to compressibility and sound speed behavior near critical points, but lacks consensus on the implications of these factors for shockwave propagation.

snorkack
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In low pressure gases, speed of sound is independent on pressure and depends only on temperature.

Therefore increase of pressure will propagate as shockwave - front of the wave compresses and heats the gas, allowing the rear of the wave to travel faster and pile up into a shock.

By the same cause, a decrease of pressure CANNOT propagate as shockwave in ideal gas - initial expansion cools the gas and slows down the rear of the wave, spreading out the unloading.

How about fluids?

The isothermal compressibility diverges to infinity at and below critical point. It does not and cannot get negative.

Adiabatic compressibility therefore stays finite everywhere.

How does the speed of sound around critical poind depend on pressure along adiabats?

Is there any region where speed of sound increases on expansion, enabling decrease of pressure to propagate as shockwave?
 
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cjl said:
It looks like there are circumstances under which it is possible to get a rarefaction shock, though the example I found involves dense gas dynamics rather than liquids (which is what I'm assuming you mean when you say "fluids").

Since liquid and gas can continuously transform passing around critical point, "fluid" is a term which covers both.
 
snorkack said:
Since liquid and gas can continuously transform passing around critical point, "fluid" is a term which covers both.

I'm fully aware of that. The reason I made the distinction is because it sounded like you were using "fluid" as something which was distinct from "gas" in the OP, when in fact there is substantial overlap. Reading the OP again, it appears that I may have simply misunderstood what you were trying to say. Regardless, the paper linked in my previous post should give an example.
 

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