Can Elementary Particles Be Considered Small Black Holes?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the concept of whether elementary particles can be considered as small black holes, examining theoretical implications and the nature of black holes in relation to particle physics. Participants raise questions about the validity of this idea, its scientific grounding, and the conditions under which particles might behave like black holes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the meaningfulness of considering elementary particles as small black holes, suggesting it might be a product of imagination.
  • Another participant asserts that any particle can become a black hole given sufficient energy, prompting a challenge regarding the conditions under which this occurs.
  • A participant expresses confusion about the properties of black holes, specifically questioning the invariance of black hole characteristics and the presence of singularities.
  • References to a paper by Holzhey and Wilczek are made, discussing the conditions necessary for an elementary particle to be classified as a black hole, specifically the relationship between Compton wavelength and Schwarzschild radius.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of particles being black holes, particularly regarding the nature of radiation emitted by particles and its relation to Hawking radiation.
  • A participant reflects on the interplay between mass and geometry in black holes, suggesting it could lead to interesting theoretical explorations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between elementary particles and black holes, with some supporting the idea that particles could become black holes under certain conditions, while others challenge this notion based on theoretical constraints. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for specific conditions, such as the mass of particles relative to the Planck mass, to consider them as black holes. There are also unresolved questions regarding the nature of singularities and the implications of particle radiation.

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Is there any theory for which "elementary" particles are "small" black holes or/and for which the electron and the proton would be a pair of associated black holes?

Does such question even be meaningful ? Or is it just science-fiction, the fruit of any crazzy imagination?
 
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Any particle, given enough energy, will become a black hole
 
negru said:
Any particle, given enough energy, will become a black hole
Are you saying that a particle can become a black hole by accelerating to a high velocity close to c? If that is what you are saying, then you are wrong.
 
Really? I thought that energy curves space-time, and when it gets curved enough it becomes a black hole. I mean, possibly ignoring new Planck scale effects
 
I'm quite confused here.. shouldn't a property of being a black hole be coordinate invariant?
There should be some singularity inside of horizon with some diverging scalar quantity.
Moving alongside the particle, no such singularity should be observed.?
 
atyy said:
Black Holes as Elementary Particles
C.F.E. Holzhey, F. Wilczek
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9202014

That's addressing the converse of the question in the OP.

For an elementary particle to be a black hole, it must have a Compton wavelength smaller than its Schwarzschild radius, otherwise the horizon is not defined. The lower bound on the mass of a black hole is therefore the Planck mass. All known elementary particles are well below this bound, so they are not black holes.
 
fzero said:
That's addressing the converse of the question in the OP.

For an elementary particle to be a black hole, it must have a Compton wavelength smaller than its Schwarzschild radius, otherwise the horizon is not defined. The lower bound on the mass of a black hole is therefore the Planck mass. All known elementary particles are well below this bound, so they are not black holes.

Despite the recommanded document is treating the converse of the question, I shall read it... and perhaps ask some more new questions.

For atyy and fzero: thank you.
 
Yeah i was wrong, sorry.
 
  • #10
negru said:
Yeah i was wrong, sorry.

What is true is this complicated interplay between the mass (the equivalent proper energy) and the dimensions (in fact the geometry, the form and the exterior surface) of a given black hole.

I am no specialist about this thematic but I guess it must be an excellent way to test some fascinating theories concerning topology, quantization ...a.s.a...

One could for example ask why the "smallest" black hole (of which the surface must be quantized, accordingly to different works: Hawking, Rovelli...) is not a pyramid (just a funny proposition) insteed to be a sphere?

As non specialist, I see another objection to the possibility: particle = blac hole. Since some particles are radiating, this hypothesis -if true- would impose a coincidence between the observed radiation and the Hawking radiation which seems to be the only one authorized by the theory...
 

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