Can Heat Engine Efficiency Be Related to Temperature?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between heat engine efficiency and temperature, particularly in the context of the Carnot Engine. Participants explore whether the efficiency of general heat engines can be similarly related to temperature as in the Carnot cycle, and they analyze a specific problem involving a heat engine operating between given temperatures.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the efficiency of a Carnot Engine can be expressed as e(Carnot) = 1 - Tc/Th, suggesting a relationship between efficiency and temperature due to the cyclic nature of the Carnot cycle.
  • Others argue that the efficiency of general heat engines can also be described as e(heat engine) = W / Qh = 1 - Qc/Qh, but question whether this can be related to temperature in the same way as the Carnot efficiency.
  • A participant mentions that the Carnot efficiency represents the theoretical maximum efficiency for thermodynamic cycles, implying that real engines may achieve lower efficiencies.
  • There is a discussion about the derivation of Carnot efficiency from the relationship Tc/Th = Qc/Qh, with some uncertainty expressed about the derivation process.
  • One participant emphasizes that the Carnot process is unique in that heat exchange occurs at two well-defined temperatures, unlike other processes where temperature varies continuously.
  • Another participant clarifies that the definition of efficiency as e = W/Qh is not merely descriptive but follows from the fundamental definition of efficiency.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit some agreement on the definition of Carnot efficiency and its relationship to temperature, but there remains disagreement on whether this relationship applies to all heat engines. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the applicability of Carnot efficiency to the specific problem presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the temperatures in the problem are given in degrees Celsius, which may affect calculations. There is also mention of the need to consider that the engine in question achieves only a fraction of the maximum possible efficiency.

vetgirl1990
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The efficiency of a Carnot Engine is described by the relationship: Tc/Th = Qc/Qh, so that e(Carnot) = 1 - Tc/Th

For heat engines, can their efficiency also be related to temperature as well?
Or is the description of their efficiency just: e(heat engine) = W / Qh = 1 - Qc/Qh

I am inclined to say that the only reason that a Carnot Engine's efficiency can be related to temperature like that, is because of the cyclic nature of the Carnot Cycle... But I'm not entirely sure.

The reason I am asking this question, is because I am trying to understand how to solve the following problem: "A heat engine operating between 200C and 80C achieves 20% of the maximum possible efficiency. What energy input will enable the engine to perform 10kJ of work?"
Tc/Th = Qc/Qh, W = Qh-Qc
Therefore, Tc/Th = (Qh - W) / Qh --> Tc/Th = 1 - W/Qh
So plugging in the above values, Qh = 16.7kJ

My solution is only valid if I made the correct assumption that Carnot efficiency can be applied to a heat engine efficiency.
 
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vetgirl1990 said:
The efficiency of a Carnot Engine is described by the relationship: Tc/Th = Qc/Qh, so that e(Carnot) = 1 - Tc/Th

I'm not sure how you derive the Carnot efficiency from Tc/Th = Qc/Qh, but the final formula is correct.

vetgirl1990 said:
For heat engines, can their efficiency also be related to temperature as well?
Or is the description of their efficiency just: e(heat engine) = W / Qh = 1 - Qc/Qh

ηC = W / Qh = (Qh - Qc) / Qh = 1 - Qc / Qh = 1 - (Tc ⋅ Δs) / (Th ⋅ Δs) = 1 - Tc / Th

vetgirl1990 said:
I am inclined to say that the only reason that a Carnot Engine's efficiency can be related to temperature like that, is because of the cyclic nature of the Carnot Cycle... But I'm not entirely sure.

The Carnot efficiency is the theoretical maximal efficiency for thermodynamic cycles (and only for thermodynamic cycles) - so yes.

vetgirl1990 said:
The reason I am asking this question, is because I am trying to understand how to solve the following problem: "A heat engine operating between 200C and 80C achieves 20% of the maximum possible efficiency. What energy input will enable the engine to perform 10kJ of work?"
Tc/Th = Qc/Qh, W = Qh-Qc
Therefore, Tc/Th = (Qh - W) / Qh --> Tc/Th = 1 - W/Qh
So plugging in the above values, Qh = 16.7kJ

My solution is only valid if I made the correct assumption that Carnot efficiency can be applied to a heat engine efficiency.

1) Your calculations are not correct. I recommend to take the Carnot efficiency as you stated it at the beginning of your post (ηC = 1 - Tc / Th).
2) The Carnot efficiency is the maximum possible efficiency - what if the cycle only achieves 20 % of it?
3) Don't forget, that the temperatures in the statement are in °C.
 
The reason why the efficiency of a Carnot process can be expressed in terms of two temperatures is the fact that it is the only process where heat exchange only takes place at two well defined temperatures. In other processes, temperature changes continuously during heat exchange (e.g. along isochores).
 
DrDu said:
The reason why the efficiency of a Carnot process can be expressed in terms of two temperatures is the fact that it is the only process where heat exchange only takes place at two well defined temperatures. In other processes, temperature changes continuously during heat exchange (e.g. along isochores).
As DrDu says, the Carnot cycle is a reversible cycle between two temperatures, and you can prove that the efficiency of the cycle is as stated by you. I have just a couple of points to clarify.
The Carnot cycle is a heat engine. It is the most efficient possible one.
efficiency e = W/Qh is not just a description, it follows from the definition of efficiency as (useful work output/heat input to engine)
 

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