Can Infinitesimal Volumes Be Arbitrary Shapes?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of infinitesimal volumes in physics, particularly whether these volumes can take on arbitrary shapes, such as spherical forms, instead of being restricted to standard shapes like cubes. The context includes theoretical considerations and practical applications in calculating fields based on charge distributions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that infinitesimal elements can indeed be of arbitrary shapes, such as spherical, depending on the coordinate system used.
  • One participant notes that in polar coordinates, the area element takes a curvilinear wedge shape, suggesting that the choice of shape is influenced by the coordinate system.
  • Another participant emphasizes that while arbitrary shapes can be used, practical considerations often dictate the choice of shape for convenience, particularly in relation to the symmetry of the problem.
  • A later reply mentions that the small shapes must be capable of stacking together to form a larger solid without gaps, highlighting a geometric constraint on the choice of shapes.
  • It is noted that while rectangular blocks can stack without gaps, solid spherical balls cannot, which limits their use as infinitesimal elements.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that arbitrary shapes can be used for infinitesimal volumes, but there is no consensus on the practicality and implications of using certain shapes over others. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best practices for selecting shapes in different contexts.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the coordinate system and the geometric properties of the shapes chosen for infinitesimal volumes. The discussion does not resolve the complexities involved in using different shapes in various physical scenarios.

themagiciant95
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In physics we often use objects with infinitesimal volume. An example is the infinitesimal volumes that we use to calculate the electrostatic field knowing the charge distribution.
Very often in the books i studied these infinitesimal elements are represented as infinitesimal cubes.
My question: can i utilize infinitesimal elements of an arbitrary shape ? For example spherical ? And why is it possible?
 
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themagiciant95 said:
In physics we often use objects with infinitesimal volume. An example is the infinitesimal volumes that we use to calculate the electrostatic field knowing the charge distribution.
Very often in the books i studied these infinitesimal elements are represented as infinitesimal cubes.
My question: can i utilize infinitesimal elements of an arbitrary shape ? For example spherical ? And why is it possible?

It depends on what coordinates you are using. With plane polar coordinates, for example, an area element has the form:

##dr \times rd\phi##

and is a curvilinear wedge shape.
 
themagiciant95 said:
In physics we often use objects with infinitesimal volume. An example is the infinitesimal volumes that we use to calculate the electrostatic field knowing the charge distribution.
Very often in the books i studied these infinitesimal elements are represented as infinitesimal cubes.
My question: can i utilize infinitesimal elements of an arbitrary shape ? For example spherical ? And why is it possible?
Yes, as long as you avoid doing anything too terribly pathological. For example, the general expression for the mass within a volume is ##\int_V\mu(...)~\mathrm{d}V## where ##\mu## is the density as a function of position. If the mass distribution is spherically symmetric then we can use spherical coordinates and the most convenient volume element is a spherical shell: ##\mathrm{d}V=4\pi{r}^{2}\mathrm{d}r##, and the integral is ##\int_0^\infty{4}\pi\mu(r){r}^{2}~\mathrm{d}r##. The choice is mostly one of convenience - in this case you wouldn't want to use a cubical volume element (although a masochist could, after writing ##\mu## as a function of ##x##, ##y##, and ##z##).

As for why it works... It's basically the same limiting process as used for all integrals.
 
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themagiciant95 said:
can i utilize infinitesimal elements of an arbitrary shape ? For example spherical ? And why is it possible?

You can use any shape, but some shapes will require much more effort to do the algebra than others without offering any benefit for the choice.
We typically make the choice that makes the work easiest.
 
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anorlunda said:
We typically make the choice that makes the work easiest.
That's my general approach to life! :smile:
 
The small shapes must be capable of being stacked together to form a solid large shape with no gaps between the pieces.

Small rectangular blocks can be stacked without gaps.

Nugatory in post #3 gave an example of concentric hollow spherical shells that can be stacked inside each other with no gaps.

On the other hand, small solid spherical balls can't be stacked side-by-side without gaps, so you can't use those.
 
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