Can Kepler's 2nd Law be applied to more than one planet?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Kepler's second law to multiple planets within a solar system, particularly focusing on the implications for their tangential velocities and orbital mechanics. Participants explore the relationship between the law and the formation of planets, as well as the broader principles of angular momentum and gravitational forces.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that Kepler's second law applies to individual planets, each sweeping out equal areas in equal times, but question its applicability across multiple planets due to differing initial conditions in their formations.
  • Others argue that as long as the central body is significantly more massive than the orbiting planet, the second law maintains a consistent proportionality constant, which is influenced by Newton's gravitational constant and the mass of the central body.
  • One participant emphasizes that the mechanics of the two-body problem underpin Kepler's laws, linking them to the conservation of angular momentum.
  • Another participant clarifies that while the areal speed is constant for a given planet, it varies between different planets, suggesting that the explanation provided may incorrectly imply uniform areal speeds across all planets.
  • Mathematical relationships are presented to illustrate how the required centripetal force relates to gravitational force, indicating that velocity is inversely proportional to the square root of the radius.
  • A participant provides a proof involving angular momentum to demonstrate that the area swept out is constant for individual planets, highlighting that the angular momentum and area swept are not the same for different planets.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of Kepler's second law to multiple planets, with some supporting its broader implications while others challenge this perspective. There is no consensus on whether the law can be uniformly applied across different planets in a system.

Contextual Notes

Some arguments rely on assumptions about the mass of the central body and the nature of the orbits, while others highlight the need for careful consideration of angular momentum and gravitational forces in the context of Kepler's laws.

Overt
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
I saw an explanation for why Jupiter has a slower tangential velocity in its orbit compared to inner planets and it stated:

"Remember that by Kepler’s second law, the planets each sweep-out the same area in the same amount of time. The outer planets’ elliptical orbits are considerably larger than those of the inner planets so, so over any given time period, they only need to complete a much smaller part of their orbit than do the inner planets and thus they have a longer year."

I've always heard and thought of the 2nd law with respect to a given planet, not as an explanation for the velocities of multiple planets in a system. To me it doesn't make sense to do it this way because of the differing initial conditions in each planets' formations.
 
Astronomy news on Phys.org
As long as the central body is much heavier than the orbiting one, the second law has the same proportionality constant, which then only depends on Newton's gravitational constant and the mass of the central body.

Edit: I should add that this is true for circular motion. Naturally, you may have a situation with zero angular momentum regardless of the radius.
 
Last edited:
The way the planets form isn't important, this is just the mechanics of a 2 body problem. Kepler's Law is a consequence of the much broader principle of conservation of angular momentum, which you most probably have already heard of.
 
Just to be clear, if we let a stopwatch run for 10 seconds and attach a line connecting the sun to Earth and a line connecting the sun to Jupiter then they will both trace the same area as each other.
 
Sorry, I do not know what I was thinking with ... The proportionality constant does depend on the radius. In fact, it has to depend on the radius just from dimensional analysis.

The argument for why outer planets have a lower velocity is to be found in the relation between the required centripetal force to the gravitational force:
$$
m \frac{v^2}r = m \frac{GM}{r^2} \quad \Longrightarrow \quad v \propto \sqrt{1/r}.
$$
 
Indeed, the areal speed is constant for a given planet but varies from planet to planet.
The relation between the distance and velocity follows from Newton's second law, not from Kepler's second law.
Their "explanation" seem to imply that all the planets have the same areal speed which is not true.
 
You can see a simple little proof as such :
The area swept out of a segment is
A = \int \frac{1}{2} r dr \delta \theta \ = \frac{1}{2} r^2 \delta \theta = \frac{1}{2} r^2 \frac{\delta \theta}{\delta t} \delta t \\ Where the RHS expression is the fraction swept out in a time dt. Using angular momentum,
= \frac{1}{2} r^2 \omega \delta t \ = \frac{L}{2m} \delta t
Because their is no torque acting on the planet the angular momentum is constant over time. Hence the area swept out in every time element, dt is constant.

This holds for individual planets. The angular momentum of Jupiter is not equal that of earth. Nor is the area swept out the same.

:::: Let me add. You should google the radius and orbital period and check whether I am indeed correct for yourself !
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
4K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
5K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
17
Views
4K