Can Metric Tensors Have Equal Determinants?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the determinants of metric tensors at different points in a Lorentzian manifold, with implications for Riemannian manifolds as well. Participants explore whether the determinants can be equal and under what conditions, raising questions about the nature of tensors and metrics in differential geometry.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the relationship between the determinants of the metric tensors at two distinct points, suggesting that there is generally no relation unless they are coordinate representations of the same point.
  • Another participant proposes that if the points are in sufficiently small neighborhoods of each other, the metrics can be made arbitrarily close, implying a potential relationship between g and g' under certain conditions.
  • A different viewpoint suggests that one can choose any smooth function as a metric on a manifold, but it is unusual for the signature of the metric to vary from point to point, indicating a preference for consistent metrics across the manifold.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of singularities in general relativity, with one participant questioning whether defining singularities as non-points in the manifold constitutes a mathematical "cheat."
  • Another participant humorously acknowledges that such "cheating" is sometimes accepted in mathematical physics, suggesting a nuanced view of mathematical rigor in the context of physical theories.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the determinants of metric tensors at different points, with some asserting no general relation exists while others suggest conditions under which they may be related. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of singularities and the nature of metric definitions.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the relationship between metric determinants may depend on the choice of coordinate systems and the nature of the manifold, highlighting the complexity of defining metrics in differential geometry.

PLuz
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Hello,

So, given two points, x and x', in a Lorentzian manifold (although I think it's the same for a Riemannian one). If in x the determinant of the metric is g and in the point x' is g'. How are g and g' related?By any means can g=g'? In what conditions?

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question but when prooving an equation I found out that it holds only if and only if g=g' and I don't think that this is always true.

Thank you.
 
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These are two different points, right? If so, there is, in general, no relation between g and g'.

If it is actually two different coordinate representations of the same point, then g' = J^2 g, where J is the Jacobian of the coordinate transformation.
 
Thank you for the prompt response.
The notation might have not been the best, sorry; it were two distinct points in a manifold.

What if the point x' were in a sufficiently small neighborhood of x and vice versa (the neighborhoods may not be the same). Aren't tensors defined in a small neighborhood of a point: since they represent a multilinear map?

Thank you, and sorry if I'm really confused about the concepts.
 
Given a manifold, you can put any metric on it that you like. Just choose any smooth function that has the same signature everywhere.

It would be unusual if the signature of the metric varied from point to point. If this happens in actual applications, it's usually a sign that you chose a bad coordinate system, which can be related via a singular transformation to some other, better system of coordinates. (Differential geometry is agnostic about coordinates, but only up to a smooth, one-to-one mapping, not up to any mapping at all.)

I think the metric does have to be free of intrinsic singularities (as opposed to mere coordinate singularities). When a singularity turns up in general relativity, for example, we define the singularity not to be a point in the manifold at all. So for this reason, I think the answer to your #3 is that yes, g and g' are related if x and x' are close. For x and x' sufficiently close, g and g' can be made as close as desired.
 
Last edited:
George Jones said:
These are two different points, right? If so, there is, in general, no relation between g and g'.

If it is actually two different coordinate representations of the same point, then g' = J^2 g, where J is the Jacobian of the coordinate transformation.
I don't get this. The tensor transo. law of the metric can be considered to be active. Then I can use your formula. And relate g(x) and g'(x'), where x and x' are different points (different coordinates in the same chart).
 
bcrowell said:
When a singularity turns up in general relativity, for example, we define the singularity not to be a point in the manifold at all.

How is this different from cheating (mathematically speaking)?
 
TrickyDicky said:
How is this different from cheating (mathematically speaking)?
It isn't. But, after all, "cheating" is a well-respected mathematical method!
 
HallsofIvy said:
It isn't. But, after all, "cheating" is a well-respected mathematical method!

:smile:

Well, in this particular case I interpreted that "we" in "we define..." to be referring to physicists, so it would be more of a well-respected "mathematical physics" method. :-p
 

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