# Can physics function without math?

1. Dec 4, 2013

### Dash-IQ

Can it ever be possible? I know it might make no sense at all, but think about it just a bit.
How could our ancestors study without proper math that we have today...
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post it(New here).

Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
2. Dec 4, 2013

### ZombieFeynman

In liu of mathematics, how do you suppose we would model natural phenomena in a way which would yield testable predictions?

3. Dec 4, 2013

### Dash-IQ

Possibly using diagrams? :tongue:
Math is a reasoning method we use, maybe there could be other ways? I don't know... I want to see all your perspectives!

4. Dec 4, 2013

### Jorriss

I'm certainly not clever enough to find a better alternative than mathematics to express physics.

5. Dec 4, 2013

### WannabeNewton

Good luck representing infinite dimensional vector spaces as diagrams.

6. Dec 4, 2013

### Staff: Mentor

Because their level of understanding couldn't use today's math if it was handed to them.

Is there really a point to what you are asking? Stop and think about what you are asking. Why do you believe that today's physics wouldn't need math and explain your reasoning.

7. Dec 4, 2013

### Astronuc

Staff Emeritus
One should look at the status of science or 'physics' two, three or four centuries ago. Before 'physics', there was 'natural philosophy'. One should look at the development of calculus in conjunction with the development of physics and astronomy.

Of course, arithmetic and geometry/trigonometry have been around longer, and one can see what was accomplished with those tools.

8. Dec 4, 2013

### AlephZero

Nearly all the "advanced" math used in physics was invented/discovered nearly 200 years ago, and some of it is a lot older than that. Even the ancient Greeks were doing things that were very close to calculus.

The one big thing that is genuinely modern is non-mechanical computers, and even then the basic ideas were invented before 1850 (and shock horror, some of them were even invented by women!!!)

Mathematicians have always made a living by getting paid to solve the problems of their own time. Given what people like Gauss, Lagrange, Euler, Laplace, etc achieved, claiming they "couldn't have used today's math if it was handed to them" seems either patronizing or ill-informed IMO.

9. Dec 4, 2013

### Staff: Mentor

I guess if it depends on recent ancestors or ancient ancestors, I was thinking ancient ancestors, you're thinking only a couple of hundred years, which I consider the beginning of modern math.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus#History

10. Dec 4, 2013

### Staff: Mentor

11. Dec 4, 2013

### Staff: Mentor

That's the problem I was pointing out to the OP, he didn't say. How can we have a discussion if he says nothing specific?

What exactly does he mean? What time period? He never said.

12. Dec 4, 2013

### Enigman

Geometry is math.
Any method which can be used to reason is math.
Mathematics is the science of numbers, quantities, and shapes and the relations between them. Can you possibly make sense of the physical world without any quantification? Even the statement "a banana is lighter than a water melon" is math http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequality_(mathematics)‎

13. Dec 5, 2013

### dlgoff

Maybe the OP is using the word "physics" defined like this:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/physics

Which may not function without math.

14. Dec 5, 2013

### ZombieFeynman

I would wager that Archimedes would understand calculus with a tiny bit of time. So, now we're at two thousand years. How ancient is ancient?

15. Dec 5, 2013

### lisab

Staff Emeritus
Physics without math is like literature without words.

16. Dec 5, 2013

### Staff: Mentor

17. Dec 5, 2013

### ZombieFeynman

Precisely my point, sir.

18. Dec 5, 2013

### 1MileCrash

ding ding ding

19. Dec 5, 2013

### jgens

This is pushing it. I would wager that most mathematicians would disagree with that.

I am actually not so sure. Yes we now understand words like "lighter" numerically in terms of mass/force, but this is a posteriori. No doubt our ancient ancestors could make sense of a phrase like that without the use of numbers.

20. Dec 5, 2013

### 1MileCrash

Then our ancestors were using math. That they did it "without the use of numbers" doesn't matter at all.

21. Dec 5, 2013

### jgens

I would argue that is a rather liberal usage and again I would wager that most mathematicians disagree with you on this point. But this is getting off-topic so if you want to discuss this further then feel free to PM me.

22. Dec 5, 2013

### Staff: Mentor

That's more or less what I was getting at. The study of "physics" certainly has changed from 2,000 years ago. When the OP says "ancestors", what time period does he wish to discuss? His title just says "Can physics function without math?", but then his OP asks "How could our ancestors study without proper math that we have today..." We need more information about what exactly his concern is, based on the time period, so it can be properly addressed.

The OP has never clarified what he meant by his post, so thread is closed.

Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
23. Dec 6, 2013

### 1MileCrash

I think you may have broken the lock button due to overuse.

24. Dec 6, 2013

### SteamKing

Staff Emeritus
ChaChing!

25. Dec 6, 2013

### collinsmark

before it's too late ...

I think the real question is why one would want to do physics without math. Math makes the physics easier, not harder.

Consider the ancient Greeks had only a compass and a straight edge as math tools. Algebra hadn't yet been invented. They spent ages trying to Square the Circle, meaning they tried to find the length of square's side such that the area of the square is equal to the area of a circle of a known radius. Similar problems might arise in physics from time to time. They tried to square the circle and failed miserably. But later, with the definition of $\pi$, and the luxury of using algebra, it was easy to show that a circle of radius 1 has the same area as a square with side $\sqrt{\pi}$. Algebra saves the day!

Now that we have algebra, what if we wanted to find the area under a curve? Such situations happen in physics all the time. One can approximate it by placing a bunch of rectangles under the curve. But that is a tedious and laborious process. Enter Isaac Newton and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz. Thank goodness for calculus! With calculus the task is a cinch.

Trying to do physics with only using ancient tools such as a straight edge and a compass would be prohibitively difficult, if even possible at all. (It might not even be possible due to the fact that many important constants are transcendental numbers).

And math is making physics easier even in modern times. Just look at the amplituhedron.