Can Quantum Mechanics Explain the Uncertainty Principle?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP) and its implications in quantum mechanics (QM). Participants explore the conceptual understanding of the HUP, the nature of particle properties, and the distinction between knowability and actual existence of properties in quantum systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the inability to measure exact position or velocity of a particle does not imply that these properties do not exist, suggesting a distinction between knowability and existence.
  • Others argue that the HUP indicates that particles do not have definite properties until measured, framing it as a fundamental aspect of quantum reality rather than a measurement issue.
  • A participant presents an analogy of wave packets to illustrate the relationship between position and momentum, suggesting that trying to localize a particle's position leads to a loss of information about its momentum.
  • Another participant critiques the use of the term "meaningless" in relation to the definition of a particle's exact location, indicating a preference for more precise language.
  • Some participants mention the Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics, which posits that particles have definite positions and momenta even when not measured, raising questions about the stability of charge clouds and radiation of electrons.
  • A rhetorical question is posed regarding why electrons do not radiate, despite being described as particles influenced by wave potentials, reflecting skepticism about the explanations provided.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the HUP, with no consensus reached on whether the properties of particles are indeterminate or merely unknowable. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretations of quantum mechanics and their implications.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of classical interpretations when discussing quantum phenomena, emphasizing the need for careful language and the distinction between empirical observations and ontological claims.

  • #31
Demystifier said:
If the wave function has definite quantum numbers n,l,m then the trajectory is a circle with the angular velocity proportional to m. In particular, when m=0 (which is the case when n=0) then the particle is at rest.

Uh.. how does that work? If the electron in a 1s state is at rest, then why does it have a nonzero expectation value for its kinetic energy? (By the virial theorem, the electron should have a kinetic energy expectation value of <p^2/2m> = +13.6 eV.) I can understand that the particle could be at rest but have uncertainty in position, but I don't understand how the particle can be at rest and have kinetic energy at the same time.
 
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  • #32
conway said:
So in the ground state of the hydrogen atom, the electron just sits there hovering at a fixed distance from the proton?
Yes.
 
  • #33
kanato said:
Uh.. how does that work? If the electron in a 1s state is at rest, then why does it have a nonzero expectation value for its kinetic energy? (By the virial theorem, the electron should have a kinetic energy expectation value of <p^2/2m> = +13.6 eV.) I can understand that the particle could be at rest but have uncertainty in position, but I don't understand how the particle can be at rest and have kinetic energy at the same time.
That is a good (and very frequent) question. When the electron is in the ground state, then its kinetic energy is zero. However, when you MEASURE the kinetic energy of the electron, then the electron becomes entangled with the measuring apparatus (which is also made up of quantum particles), so the electron is NO LONGER in the ground state. Instead the electron starts to move and attains a definite kinetic energy. It turns out, and this is THE CENTRAL part of Bohmian mechanics, that whatever you MEASURE, the probabilities of obtaining particular measurement outcomes are exactly the same as those given by standard QM.

The crucial point to remember is the fact that measurement changes the properties of the system. This fact is called - contextuality.
 
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  • #34
DrChinese said:
I don't want to take this thread into the area of one interpretation or another, but you might gain some information from this:

http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3878
This paper (just as many similar ones) is wrong for a simple reason that it does not take into account the theory of quantum measurements involving entanglement between the measured system and the measuring apparatus. When this is taken into account, then, as Bohm proved GENERALLY in his 1952 paper, the Bohmian QM and standard QM have exactly the same predictions in all circumstances, as long as one measures observables defined by hermitian operators in the Hilbert space.

But for some reason, people tend to have an opinion on Bohmian mechanics without styding its crucial part - the theory of quantum measurements. Without that, Bohmian mechanics cannot be properly understood. It is the crucial part, even more important than particle trajectories themselves.
 

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